CA Emissions Questions in SLO area: Need for the airp pump

[jeff91C2T]

Hello to all the Ca 930 owners out there. Did some searching and couldn't quite find my answer so I, hesitantly post a Ca emissions question.

I have a 91 Turbo. The air pump is removed but the tubes to the cylinders are still there. During the visual inspection, do they look for the presence of the air pump? This would be for the Morro Bay/SLO area.

I'm also running PH headers with flow through muffler (no cat). The car smogs fine and passes the sniff test with flying colors. I do have the original exhaust I could put on for the visual if need be.

Has anybody ever pointed to the muffler and said...."see, there's the CAT."?

[9dreizig]

My understanding (limited) is they will be looking for sure..

[lucittm]

The question is, Do they do the visual first or the test first? If they do the test first you are likely to get an overall Pass. There are not many of our cars out there but they have a book and it shows them where to look...

Mark

[9dreizig]

I'd ask Brian Boardwell or Noah930

[x98boardwell]

Jeff,

I am Bryan as mentioned by Todd above. I recently sold my 930. I would say if the place that is smogging your vehicle would happen to look for anything it would be the catalytic converter... The air injection lines in place will help (even though you are not using them) but the Cat will be the only thing that could possibly mess you up visually.

I will say that I always wondered if I could pass without the cat... based on the sniffer at the smog shop alone. it is nice to know. It will help to realize that shop to shop will change drastically on what they look for with our cars. My guess is the Cat is the only thing you need to worry about them possibly noticing. Just say you tracked the car recently and completely forgot to take it off. Worst case if you can reinstall stock exhaust which is what I used to do every year as I thought it wouldn't pass without it.

By the way, I am in Fresno and occasionally in SLO.

Best of luck,
Bryan

[lucittm]

Ruthless Hijack ->
I just completed an unplanned experiment. I had my car in for a new rear wheel bearing (those things grumble when they are bad!) and the shop owner asked me if I wanted to smog it because was due in that month. I said sure, forgetting that I had my "test pipe" still installed. It failed.

So I get the one month extension and then 2 weeks later I installed the used, original cat. Same tank of Shell premium gas. No additives, no other changes; even the weather was the same (overcast from a rain the night before). And of course the same state smog facility and even the same technician!

We use the rollers to simulate loads on the car, here are the results, read (max) "actual".

Before (test pipe installed):
15 MPH..........................25 MPH
HC ppm...(83) 106...........(91) 59
CO%.......(.33) .88..........(.48) .72
NO ppm...(1091) 2038......(1061) 1094

After (catalytic converter installed):
15 MPH..........................25 MPH
HC ppm....(83) 15.............(91) 26
CO%........(.33) .04...........(.48) .08
NO ppm....(1091) 533........(1061) 301

BTW, there is a "Dilution" reading also. That might be AFR? Mine was 14.5 at 15 MPH and 14.9 at 25 MPH.

Also, in the Commonwealth of Virginia the test parameters have not changed since the last test I did in 2009. For comparison, when I bought the car from the PO in 2008 the Connecticut static test parameters were:
HC ppm - 91, CO% - .48, and NO ppm - 1061 (the same as the VA 25 MPH test).

You can draw your own conclusions. But I don't think I will forget the cat. next time.

Thanks,
Mark

[mcguff73]

jeff91 I'm surprised your car passes california smog without the cat/air pump. My car failed but even when it did the tech didn't look for the cat, which at the time was off. I think its going to be luck of the draw. At other times with other cars I've actually had the tech look under the car with a mirror to see if everything was smog legal. I'm in the LA area

[jeff91C2T]

Hey Mark....no worries. And thanks for the details!

I just pulled my last WA state results. They are;

CO HC (PPM)
idle .18 14 (limit 1.2 & 220)
Cruise .23 26 (limit 1 & 150)

Again this is with headers and no cat. O2 Sensor plugged in and I'm measuring ~14.8 afr (with LC1). Engine warm etc....

Your numbers are pretty high. I was curious, do you run with the 02 sensor plugged in or unplugged? One "trick" I use is to run the afr lean so that the lambda unit has to hunt to bring it back to spec. So it's always bouncing off the a higher afr ratio.

Originally Posted by lucittm

Ruthless Hijack ->
I just completed an unplanned experiment. I had my car in for a new rear wheel bearing (those things grumble when they are bad!) and the shop owner asked me if I wanted to smog it because was due in that month. I said sure, forgetting that I had my "test pipe" still installed. It failed.

So I get the one month extension and then 2 weeks later I installed the used, original cat. Same tank of Shell premium gas. No additives, no other changes; even the weather was the same (overcast from a rain the night before). And of course the same state smog facility and even the same technician!

We use the rollers to simulate loads on the car, here are the results, read (max) "actual".

Before (test pipe installed):
15 MPH..........................25 MPH
HC ppm...(83) 106...........(91) 59
CO%.......(.33) .88..........(.48) .72
NO ppm...(1091) 2038......(1061) 1094

After (catalytic converter installed):
15 MPH..........................25 MPH
HC ppm....(83) 15.............(91) 26
CO%........(.33) .04...........(.48) .08
NO ppm....(1091) 533........(1061) 301

BTW, there is a "Dilution" reading also. That might be AFR? Mine was 14.5 at 15 MPH and 14.9 at 25 MPH.

Also, in the Commonwealth of Virginia the test parameters have not changed since the last test I did in 2009. For comparison, when I bought the car from the PO in 2008 the Connecticut static test parameters were:
HC ppm - 91, CO% - .48, and NO ppm - 1061 (the same as the VA 25 MPH test).

You can draw your own conclusions. But I don't think I will forget the cat. next time.

Thanks,
Mark

[Noah930]

Yes, technically they look for anything and everything. The visual test is done before the sniffer test. However, how hard they look is up to the technician doing the test, if you catch my drift.

The first time I had the car smogged in CA, my air pump was present but not connected (PO had disconnected it). The tech doing the test must have stared at it for 5 minutes, but didn't say a thing. In the meantime, another tech looking over our shoulders was talking with me and whispered that next time I should have it hooked up.

My car is stock so its not an issue for me, but yes you need to have the original exhaust (again, technically) to pass the visual. I know most Californians go to the effort of sticking the stock exhaust back on every 2 years for the smog test. But anecdotally people have pointed to the muffler and claimed it to be the cat and gotten away with it.

[lucittm]

Jeff,
I run with the O2 sensor plugged in because I'm scared to find out what might happen if I disconnect it. The car runs great, so why risk it?

Funny that you mention the bouncing AFRs. Mine bounces too but I think it is the opposite from you. I think I have some cylinders that are running rich and it is sampling a rich-lean condition. I also notice that the inside of my exhaust is a bit sooty and black, not a nice chocolate brown that you would expect (and want).

I think you may have better gas than we do.

I read about someone on this board who used a IR temperature gun to determine which of his header pipes was hotter than the others (too lean) and then he adjusted the offending orifice on the fuel head. I plan to do a similar operation except I will be looking for the cooler (too rich) header pipe and try to adjust that injector source.

One thing he said was that he had to adjust his CO each time he made a change and that scares me because I don't know how to do it and I might make it worse.

Did I mention that the car runs GREAT! Cruising at exactly 3000 RPM and above my AFR is solid and a hair over 14. I mean "a hair" and under 3000 it bounces. Is that the WUR or the frequency valve? It is repeatable.


Mark

[jeff91C2T]

The bouncing is the frequency valve doing it's thing. If you disconnect the 02 sensor it will settle down. I've played with going unplugged vs plugged for the 02 sensor in many different scenario's (autox, track, around town, hwy cruise) and for the C2T the computer does a good job. By that I mean best fuel mileage, sharpest throttle response and over all running. Keep in mind for any on boost / load / or higher RPM's the 02 sensor is not used and the frequency valve goes to 50% duty cycle.

When you get over 3k rpm it's going open loop, that's why the afr's settle down (mine does that too actually).

Adjusting is easy....as long as you have the wide band o2 sensor installed. The system wants ~14.7 so all you have to do is adjust to get to that value (with sensor unplugged). You can also set it a little richer or leaner but the computer will compensate and try to get it back to the programed value.

For gas...if I'm doing a sniff test I'll run oxygenated gas. All other times I go to a local station that sells "pure" gas. A little more expensive but the engine likes it better and I feel better not having to worry to much about the lines.

Originally Posted by lucittm

Jeff,
I run with the O2 sensor plugged in because I'm scared to find out what might happen if I disconnect it. The car runs great, so why risk it?

Funny that you mention the bouncing AFRs. Mine bounces too but I think it is the opposite from you. I think I have some cylinders that are running rich and it is sampling a rich-lean condition. I also notice that the inside of my exhaust is a bit sooty and black, not a nice chocolate brown that you would expect (and want).

I think you may have better gas than we do.

I read about someone on this board who used a IR temperature gun to determine which of his header pipes was hotter than the others (too lean) and then he adjusted the offending orifice on the fuel head. I plan to do a similar operation except I will be looking for the cooler (too rich) header pipe and try to adjust that injector source.

One thing he said was that he had to adjust his CO each time he made a change and that scares me because I don't know how to do it and I might make it worse.

Did I mention that the car runs GREAT! Cruising at exactly 3000 RPM and above my AFR is solid and a hair over 14. I mean "a hair" and under 3000 it bounces. Is that the WUR or the frequency valve? It is repeatable.


Mark

[jeff91C2T]

Thanks Noah. I hear ya about the tech's. I guess it just kinda depends who you get.

One time for me they tried to put the test probe in the waste gate pipe....funny. And one time when asked I did say..."Ya...that must be the CAT".

Originally Posted by Noah930

Yes, technically they look for anything and everything. The visual test is done before the sniffer test. However, how hard they look is up to the technician doing the test, if you catch my drift.

The first time I had the car smogged in CA, my air pump was present but not connected (PO had disconnected it). The tech doing the test must have stared at it for 5 minutes, but didn't say a thing. In the meantime, another tech looking over our shoulders was talking with me and whispered that next time I should have it hooked up.

My car is stock so its not an issue for me, but yes you need to have the original exhaust (again, technically) to pass the visual. I know most Californians go to the effort of sticking the stock exhaust back on every 2 years for the smog test. But anecdotally people have pointed to the muffler and claimed it to be the cat and gotten away with it.

[x98boardwell]

I forgot to mention... when I first bought my car it failed SMOG with a bad cat... had to borrow a buddies rear assembly to pass... don't take this the wrong way.

Bryan

[tom84930]

OK, so it's maybe understandable why you would stay there if you have extended famly and a job you love/need in California. But for the life of me, I can't imagine why anyone would move there at this point in time. Terrible schools, out of control bureaucracy, high taxes, rampant drug problems, gangs, bankrupt government, overflowing jails and--yes, of to top it all off--even Nazi-like smog tests.

I spent time there in the Marine Corps back in the 1960s, and over the years have come out to LA and San Francisco on business dozens of times. Hell, I used to hitch hike up from Camp Pendleton to Hollywood to see The Doors. And, yes, the surfer girls were beautiful and the beaches amazing. But Jesus Christ, talk about a dream-turned-nightmare. All the friends I still have out there are spending the majority of their time these days figuring out how to get away from the nanny stated, social engineered, budget deficited, politically straitjacketed mess that California has become.

Admittedly, Minnesota and Arizona, where I live, are far from perfect. But compared to California these days, they are freaking nirvana.

[jeff91C2T]

Uhhh....what does this have to do with my question? Isn't there another thread you're participating on that would be more appropriate

And when you get back to the other thread, take this with re the high tax rate in CA as compared to MN

PS...you might want to read a bit on SLO, and the surrounding area

Originally Posted by tom84930

OK, so it's maybe understandable why you would stay there if you have extended famly and a job you love/need in California. But for the life of me, I can't imagine why anyone would move there at this point in time. Terrible schools, out of control bureaucracy, high taxes, rampant drug problems, gangs, bankrupt government, overflowing jails and--yes, of to top it all off--even Nazi-like smog tests.

I spent time there in the Marine Corps back in the 1960s, and over the years have come out to LA and San Francisco on business dozens of times. Hell, I used to hitch hike up from Camp Pendleton to Hollywood to see The Doors. And, yes, the surfer girls were beautiful and the beaches amazing. But Jesus Christ, talk about a dream-turned-nightmare. All the friends I still have out there are spending the majority of their time these days figuring out how to get away from the nanny stated, social engineered, budget deficited, politically straitjacketed mess that California has become.

Admittedly, Minnesota and Arizona, where I live, are far from perfect. But compared to California these days, they are freaking nirvana.

[tom84930]

jeff91C2T
Point taken. Your thread, your rules. One brief word of advice, however: Careful what you put in writing on a public forum such as this. As unlikely as it may seem, you just never know when some investigator from the California DMV might be lurking.
Best of luck to you.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by tom84930

jeff91C2T
Point taken. Your thread, your rules. One brief word of advice, however: Careful what you put in writing on a public forum such as this. As unlikely as it may seem, you just never know when some investigator from the California DMV might be lurking.
Best of luck to you.

I've dealt with several of these people outside of the DMV (taken care of them for workman's comp injuries). I have strong suspicions there's no one motivated enough to do what you're suggesting.

[jeff91C2T]

Ah yes...good advice, thanks

And you should probably stay out of California after the rant

Originally Posted by tom84930

jeff91C2T
Point taken. Your thread, your rules. One brief word of advice, however: Careful what you put in writing on a public forum such as this. As unlikely as it may seem, you just never know when some investigator from the California DMV might be lurking.
Best of luck to you.