2.8 Turbo Engine Build

[willtel]

Threads like this are why I am sometimes hesitant to post the work I do on my own car. I'm out of my depth here.

[TurboKraft]

Very cool build! Looking forward to the conclusion.

Originally Posted by willtel

Threads like this are why I am sometimes hesitant to post the work I do on my own car. I'm out of my depth here.

Never. Dig in, give it a try. Even if you aren't happy with the initial results, you'll have fun, your skills will improve, and you can do it again. :-)

[Mike Billings]

Crackin me up with the comment about the welding skills. That's really funny.

Yea, sometimes it gets really bad with DIY welding. I recently found a local pro that is extremely reasonable. Still working on getting new machine, lessons, practice, etc. however.

If there's time I have to make a thread on the home-made TIG machine! That's been my favorite welder for about 10 years at home. Didn't spend more than $100 on it. Well, there were a few broken welders laying around to use for parts.

[zcoker]

Now that is beyond cool, making your own ECU and TIG welder! I like how you use your brains to find inexpensive solutions to complex problems. Once finished, better look out! I've been to the drag races and have seen homemade shade-tree road cars driven to the strip only to destroy some of those pro team expensive high tech trailer'ed cars. Keep up the good work and let no one discourage you.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by quattrorunner

I know how to use . . . some JB weld.

You most certainly do!

[Mike Billings]

The fourth (and last?) injection system that's been used on this engine is the Megasquirt 3 Pro (MS3).



MS3-Pro Standalone Engine Management System by DIYAutoTune.com

I'd say the up's are a broad feature set and low cost while the down's are that many don't appreciate the lack of factory support. Support is available on this forum:

Megasquirt MSEXTRA / MS3EFI • Index page

This system was set up to provide fuel only because the two Electromotive HPV units were still providing a powerful spark energy after many years of service. The HPV system was advertised to deliver 120 milli-Joules per spark at 10,000 RPM when new.



This MS3 is configured for full sequential fueling using the excellent Clewett cam trigger. The trigger bracket can be mounted on either camshaft.



Since the HPV ignition units were already crankshaft triggered by a Clewett 60-2 wheel, it seemed simpler to have the MS3's crank trigger interface the HPV's tach output rather than work out how to have the MS3 and the two HPVs all connect to the crank trigger in parallel.

Currently the main fuel table is configured to respond to throttle angle and RPM. Then, the table lookup result is multiplied by MAP pressure to compensate for turbo boost. The MS3 has a feature that reads AFR and tweeks the main fuel table as you drive. It seems to work! Still in the process of fine tuning the map (not my screen on this one).



Some of the other features I'm using: wide-band closed-loop with AFR target tables, boost control, 2 knock sensors, injector timing map, SD card datalogging, MAF sensor (for reference). My custom dashboard below:



If you are interested, there's a couple cool gauges here. The "Intercooler Efficiency" gauge is calculated using 3 NTC thermistor readings. The "Net Power" gauge reads the wheel speed sensor and uses a mathematical model that accounts for vehicle mass, air drag, rolling resistance, and drivetrain losses.

[Tippy]

^^^^Awesome! This thread got even better! Love the cam trigger!

Wished I'd have went Pro. My MSII is full of features but lacks sequential which I now want to do for better MPG and throttle response.

[TurboKraft]

Mike, if the car's in Peoria, keep us in mind when you need a chassis dyno to tune that on. We're by Broadway & Dobson in Mesa, close to the Loop-101.

[Mike Billings]

I was recently considering asking you about that, Chris.

Noticed your dyno ability in another thread.

It's definitely safer than crusing the 101 with a laptop.

Thanks

[Mike Billings]

So let's get some fresh headers under there!

The current ones are 7 years old, ugly and leaky. They're made from chopped up Bursch headers. They do have equal length 11" primaries however. Shortys are good for this application. Can't find a photo of them! Maybe there is a reason?
Personally, I would not be afraid to try the $75 Chinese collectors. Could they be cleaned up internally with a grinder? Heated and stress relieved? They are a bit long for making short headers however.



I'm sort of into flat collectors now. They lend a vintage feel. And ground clearance Not really searching for horsepower now. Was talking with SPD exhaust in Rancho Cordova. They carry 321 stainless and their flat collectors look fine.



Been sketching a new design. Specifying 25 degree entry to shorten the entire package. Specified rather thick 16 gauge 321 stainless because it's not a race car. This was drawn in FreeCAD BTW. Could do a lot better with it, just ran out of time.






I'm sure Burns would make a similar product if asked. Just gotta find my own way. Your thoughts?

[Miguel Antonett]

Prrrrreeeeettttycool!

[Tippy]

Yeah, very cool.

[VZ935]

Originally Posted by Mike Billings

Mike I scavenged my turbo's from the sump plate too. If yours works ok cool but just an FYI Jerry Woods makes a billet one if you need it. You really can't see it in this photo but I ran hard lines to it from my turbo's. Works great.

[Mike Billings]

Van, I particularly like that photo of your engine. Saw you at Road America.

Thanks for the tip on that sump plate and yeah, hard lines are better than hose when they are anywhere near the headers. Thanks.

Only one problem ever with the gravity drain. Oil drips from the turbos only if it has not been driven for a week. I keep it jacked up just to be safe.

Was planning on switching to a 930 scavenge pump.

Any theories?

I was thinking maybe the engine oil pump was worn out, allowing oil to fill the crankcase after a few days of sitting. Then the oil filled crankcase drips out through the turbo bearings. If I park it flat for a couple months, there will be two quarts of oil on the floor.

[VZ935]

Mike
It has been a while since I have been to Road America. Last time I was there I had my yellow and purple GT 993 twin turbo and I had the 930 770 0911/009 0005 in the black BP liver like it ran at Le Mans.

The yellow and purple car I actually scavenged the turbos directly to the valve covers. But my turbos are on the side of the motor so that makes a difference (photos below) I had very small turbos on that car which is funny because with all the big turbo cars that were there I was 3 seconds faster than the next closest car. When I changed to larger turbos Johannes van Overbeek took the car out for practice at Willow Springs and didn't make two laps before the turbos went. I can only assume the larger turbo affected the configuration enough that my current set up would not scavenge efficiently so I put a Powerhaus pump on the motor which I think is a modified VW oil pump and it worked great. I think it was 600 bucks.

The engine in the photo above is from my yellow 935 chassis 930 670 0171 which is a converted 934 that now has that 3.2 liter twin motor. I never use the old 935 oil pumps anymore. I do a little case mod and put the new GT3RSR pump in and scavenge the turbos from the sump plate. I never have any oil build up issues from the car sitting.

[Dai]

nM[U G~S` [/U]

[Mike Billings]

Van, yes the yellow car was quite inspiring. I don't think we'll ever forget it.

I remember your team, also. I'm just not the type to come over and say hi.

So I'll try a new oil pump first (rebuilding the engine soon anyhow). Hopefully that will take care of the engine filling with oil while parked.

I wasn't clear before. It's a front mounted oil tank. So when the rear is jacked up, there is no oil in the engine, hence no drips from the turbos.

It's comforting to hear the GT3RSR pump doesn't mind the extra flow (and bubbles) from the turbos. Was wondering if everyone had good success at higher sustained RPMs. Never heard anyone confirm that before.

As I understand, those small turbos might be right choice at just about any track other than R/A. I'm kicking myself for starting small on the turbos and then upgrading everything over and over.

[patkeefe]

Mike, I built a test stand for my turbo 3.0. I found I had to adjust the height on the remote oil tank (I mounted it on uni-strut) to keep the oil from leaking out the turbo. Evidently, these engines are very fussy about oil levels.

[VZ935]

Yes Mike I was running a Patterson tank up front.
Even with the small turbos and the car geared way too tall, 192 @ 7200, I still was in the mid teens about a 176 according to the wheel speed sensor at the end of the main straight. Was running too big of a front splitter so that slowed me down a touch too. Car had a couple of seconds in it for sure but it was still a blast even in Daytona trim.


I don't know that I have any answers Mike but if there is any info you think I can contribute I am happy to do so. Love your car.







The group Road America photo from that weekend

[Mike Billings]

Pat: I see, maybe the front mounted oil tank changes the oil level. I guess one great thing about the 930 turbo scavenge pump is there is no way to siphon oil through the turbo oil drains like gravity drain can do.

Van: I'd say 176 is plenty fast into turn 5. Not all the Indy cars would beat 190. That big splitter is a good thing when the track turns downhill into the brake zone. I noticed the steering wheel has little effect in that area. The front end is lifted up by aero.

Thanks for the new pics. I think there are a few to study that we haven't seen before.