CIS Flow mods, who can help/enlighten

[RarlyL8]

I'm not sure what the question is, this has been done before, we've done it, and you have the equipment so you can do it. You are telling everyone you can and will do it. If you need metering pistons and barrels just buy some junk fuel distributors. There is no black magic, plenty of manuals and schematics out there.

[awjens]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

I'm not sure what the question is, this has been done before, we've done it, and you have the equipment so you can do it. You are telling everyone you can and will do it. If you need metering pistons and barrels just buy some junk fuel distributors. There is no black magic, plenty of manuals and schematics out there.

I tried to get an answer from Cisflotech, and its my understanding Gavin did as well. 20% isn't enough for what I need, probably not enough for most people. I didn't get a reply to my email, Gavin can say what happened with his request as I wasn't a part of that discussion. 930 heads flow more than Sc heads.

I have read the manuals, and posts indicating that changing the slot width is only a part of the solution. In that post no explanation on that statement.

So making a statement like that just creates more questions. In the end it's not helpful at all. Seems a bit secretive to me.

I'm simply asking for help and answers. The answers I get here everyone can see. the answers I am forced to find, once again everyone will see.

This was posted by Edelweiss


" The slitz
We have done this already - with the help of a German university, what we found out is that the slits are just a part of the story and it was the simple one, later it gets a little more complicated.

However you are right - CIS can do much more: on a 8,5 : 1, 3,4 L 934 we see 720 hp using a modern cam profile..

And still it is not running lean - so the limit is not CIS !

Best reg."

So whats the rest of the story? It would be nice to know.

Do the lines limit the flow?
If so what is the limit thru the lines?
Do injectors need to be changed?
If the slits are opened what else needs modification?
What affect does changing the spring pressure have?
How much fuel can a stock 911 pump flow?
do I need two pumps like a 930, or will a single 200l/h 8 bar motorsports pump be enough for 400HP?
If i have a 930 head and I want 500 HP what do I need to modify?

What we want to do is find the limits. I don't see that information anywhere on this site. Plenty of people running out of fuel and lots of threads about attempted workarounds.

I'm trying to get more from my head, for my car. If I learn something everyone here will learn it too.

[Rawknees'Turbo]

I imagine that it would be very difficult (and rightfully so) to get free, detailed explanations and instructions on how to extensively modify a fuel head from those that have successfully done so, via vast experimentation, great personal expense, years of learned knowledge and so forth, and who do this type of stuff for a living (Larry, Brian, Edelweiss, et al.).

[RarlyL8]

Do the lines limit the flow?
If so what is the limit thru the lines?
Do injectors need to be changed?
If the slits are opened what else needs modification?
What affect does changing the spring pressure have?
How much fuel can a stock 911 pump flow?
do I need two pumps like a 930, or will a single 200l/h 8 bar motorsports pump be enough for 400HP?
If i have a 930 head and I want 500 HP what do I need to modify?

OK these are questions the collective can help you with. We do very basic modifications to the SC fuel distributor to get it to feed race cars putting out 250HP. No idea what it would take to double that figure. I'm pretty sure what would be left when done would not be recognizable as an SC unit. You couldn't use the fuel lines or the injectors, or the pump, or the WUR. Anything can be done but boy is this going to get involved. It is true that not everyone has access to an EDM machine (I live in Rocket City so there are several) but the time and effort for research is tremendous. Protecting your business is critical. The internet has destroyed many a business by giving to the masses for free the toils of the few.

[awjens]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

OK these are questions the collective can help you with. We do very basic modifications to the SC fuel distributor to get it to feed race cars putting out 250HP. No idea what it would take to double that figure. I'm pretty sure what would be left when done would not be recognizable as an SC unit. You couldn't use the fuel lines or the injectors, or the pump, or the WUR. Anything can be done but boy is this going to get involved. It is true that not everyone has access to an EDM machine (I live in Rocket City so there are several) but the time and effort for research is tremendous. Protecting your business is critical. The internet has destroyed many a business by giving to the masses for free the toils of the few.

These heads are almost 40 years old. I am not trying to break into anyones business. I sent someone in that business an email. They didnt reply. A fellow pelican in the same situation did as I did and he ended up going full EFI. After 40 years I would think this would be a freely discussed topic.

Back to the problem at hand. Edelweiss posted modifying the slits was not the only solution. Doing flow tests on volume the stock SC pump will not be enough. I don't want two pumps like the turbo so I am trying to buy a Bosch 200 l/h 8 bar pump.

This is the part number B 261 205 413-01

[Tippy]

Originally Posted by awjens

There's no way the tolerance is .0001 inches. That's not achievable with any EDM machine nor is it necessary. The blades, veins and injectors in every vehicle on the road and jet in the sky are not manufactured to that tolerance.

So ABEC-9 or 11 ball bearings aren't held to that spec?

[PcarPhil]

Originally Posted by awjens

...so I am trying to buy a Bosch 200 l/h 8 bar pump.

This is the part number B 261 205 413-01

I have an interest in purchasing (2) of these pumps. Please let me know if you find a Bosch Motorsports supplier that can get the pumps at a reasonable price.

Thanks!

[TurboKraft]

You are correct again, Tippy. Higher-end EDM machines can split thousandths.

[Tippy]

Originally Posted by TurboKraft

You are correct again, Tippy. Higher-end EDM machines can split thousandths.

That's what I was told, hence buying EDM

[awjens]

This isn't a discussion about whether and EDM machine can split thousandths. For a fuel head it quite simply isn't necessary. We don't supply bearing manufacturers, we supply companies that burn holes for flow. I don't know what bearing companies do but holding a dimensional tolerance vs. a flow tolerance it quite different. since the heads are somewhat adjustable .001 or .0001 isn't an issue. There are so many more variables in these engines we cannot change or control.

So I will add this story..

These machines can cost upwards of 1 Million USD. I don't know what higher end means but it would be interesting to see.

Wire EDM can split thousandths. Sinking machines are different. Electrodes wear a tapered amount while cutting. Unless someone can invent an electrode that does not get smaller during the spark/arc process taper is always an issue. When a slot is cut, if there is enough depth that the electrode can be longer, taper can be minimized and tolerances tightened and the hole is "finish" cut on a unworn portion of the shaped electrode. Sometimes a second electrode is sent thru the hole for finish size.

I don't have one in my hand (a spool), but I will soon. It may be that these were wire cut, but getting tooling inside a small diameter is difficult. Wire EDM is like a band saw.

Wire EDM uses a spool of wire, exacting tolerances. Because as the wire is constantly moving and it constantly replaced with new wire finer accuracy can be achieved. Taper/Wear is not an issue.

An example is a fuel mixture plate for a Delta Rocket. We made the machine that makes them. The entire theory is based upon two elements, fuel and oxidizer. They are directed at each other thru thousands of holes in patterns called quadlets. the size of the hole and the ability to direct these two at one another is critical. They also must me in relation to the machined parabolic dish surface. Some extremely talented (probably German) engineer came up with this idea in the 50's. We produced a machine that probed the entire parabolic dish and recorded a series of measurements (thousands) of the surface of the dish around each quadlet pattern. We then manipulated a 7 axis machine and electrode to blast the quadlets in relative to the surface that we had probed. Every hole, every pattern has multiple offsets. Some finer than .00005 inches.

The result, the first rocket engine exploded on the pad. Why?

The answer, some 45 years after the theory was proven and placed into production, machining tolerances and EDM was not capable of making every pattern of fuel and oxidizer produce the theorized contact spray. So to compensate the manufacturing process increased the sizes of the fuel and oxidizer holes and after repeated testing, came up with enough thrust. The engineer was told he was close, but his theory was slightly flawed.

Prior to this a very skilled journeyman layed out the entire dish with high spot blueing. I'm not sure how but they then scribed lines on this dish where every pattern went, every hole. They placed it in a machine which the went to the calculated position. this machinist then looked thru an optical scope, moved the machine to the crosshairs, then burned the hole. this took hundreds of hours. He didnt just move in x-y plane. He using years of learning manipulated at least 5 axis to hit the lines. then recorded each set of adjustments to try and maintain the angular relationship to the other holes in that pattern. On a parabolic shaped dish.

Our machine probed and burned in 1 week.

The reality, we produced a plate to blueprint tolerances with as close as you can get to perfect considering flow and angles. With the increased electrode sizes due to manufacturing inconsistencies we produced more heat and more thrust. the increased heat caused the plate to exceed its operating temperature and burned thru. Reaching the source of the fuel and oxidizer above the plate and exploding.

The solution. Go back to the original engineers calculations on hole sizes. This included bring the 80+ year old "rocket scientist" back to the plant to help us find the cause.
He came in a handicapped accessible van with his wife. I became the coffee runner to keep him and our mathematician busy calculating. Called in occasionally to explain my formulas for directing the 7 axis machine to the probed locations.

He left and I will never forget it. A man told for years he was close, but not quite there. He left with a chip on his shoulder and a wife that thanked me for helping to prove he was right all along. I didn't solve the problem, he did. In reality we owed him thanks, he saved us from a 12 Million Dollar loss. He passed away a couple years later, his wife said he left that day a different man.

When you think your smart, someone always comes along to humble you. I have made it a part of my career to learn from those people. I despise people unwilling to share their knowledge. If this was today's technology and a formula 1 win was at stake, I would understand.

Back to fuel injection. A day you don't learn something, is a day wasted. He told me that on the way back to his van.....

[kenikh]

Originally Posted by awjens

This isn't a discussion about whether and EDM machine can split thousandths. For a fuel head it quite simply isn't necessary. We don't supply bearing manufacturers, we supply companies that burn holes for flow. I don't know what bearing companies do but holding a dimensional tolerance vs. a flow tolerance it quite different. since the heads are somewhat adjustable .001 or .0001 isn't an issue. There are so many more variables in these engines we cannot change or control.

So I will add this story..

These machines can cost upwards of 1 Million USD. I don't know what higher end means but it would be interesting to see.

Wire EDM can split thousandths. Sinking machines are different. Electrodes wear a tapered amount while cutting. Unless someone can invent an electrode that does not get smaller during the spark/arc process taper is always an issue. When a slot is cut, if there is enough depth that the electrode can be longer, taper can be minimized and tolerances tightened and the hole is "finish" cut on a unworn portion of the shaped electrode. Sometimes a second electrode is sent thru the hole for finish size.

I don't have one in my hand (a spool), but I will soon. It may be that these were wire cut, but getting tooling inside a small diameter is difficult. Wire EDM is like a band saw.

Wire EDM uses a spool of wire, exacting tolerances. Because as the wire is constantly moving and it constantly replaced with new wire finer accuracy can be achieved. Taper/Wear is not an issue.

An example is a fuel mixture plate for a Delta Rocket. We made the machine that makes them. The entire theory is based upon two elements, fuel and oxidizer. They are directed at each other thru thousands of holes in patterns called quadlets. the size of the hole and the ability to direct these two at one another is critical. They also must me in relation to the machined parabolic dish surface. Some extremely talented (probably German) engineer came up with this idea in the 50's. We produced a machine that probed the entire parabolic dish and recorded a series of measurements (thousands) of the surface of the dish around each quadlet pattern. We then manipulated a 7 axis machine and electrode to blast the quadlets in relative to the surface that we had probed. Every hole, every pattern has multiple offsets. Some finer than .00005 inches.

The result, the first rocket engine exploded on the pad. Why?

The answer, some 45 years after the theory was proven and placed into production, machining tolerances and EDM was not capable of making every pattern of fuel and oxidizer produce the theorized contact spray. So to compensate the manufacturing process increased the sizes of the fuel and oxidizer holes and after repeated testing, came up with enough thrust. The engineer was told he was close, but his theory was slightly flawed.

The reality, we produced a plate to blueprint tolerances with as close as you can get to perfect considering flow and angles. With the increased electrode sizes due to manufacturing inconsistencies we produced more heat and more thrust. the increased heat caused the plate to exceed its operating temperature and burned thru. Reaching the source of the fuel and oxidizer above the plate and exploding.

The solution. Go back to the original engineers calculations on hole sizes. This included bring the 80+ year old "rocket scientist" back to the plant to help us find the cause.
He came in a handicapped accessible van with his wife. I became the coffee runner to keep him and our mathematician busy calculating. Called in occasionally to explain my formulas for directing the 7 axis machine to the probed locations.

He left and I will never forget it. A man told for years he was close, but not quite there. He left with a chip on his shoulder and a wife that thanked me for helping to prove he was right all along. I didn't solve the problem, he did. In reality we owed him thanks, he saved us from a 12 Million Dollar loss. He passed away a couple years later, his wife said he left that day a different man.

When you think your smart, someone always comes along to humble you. I have made it a part of my career to learn from those people. I despise people unwilling to share their knowledge. If this was today's technology and a formula 1 win was at stake, I would understand.

Back to fuel injection. A day you don't learn something, is a day wasted. He told me that on the way back to his van.....

This needs more than a forum post to tell it. Bloody amazing story.

Just reread it - gave me chills.

[RarlyL8]

The age of the technology is irrelevant, if someone has invested time and money into research why should they be despised for not wanting to give that away? Would you give away your toil for free that is your livelihood? I seriously doubt it. There is still a market for CIS mods, these folks make their living on it.

[awjens]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

OK these are questions the collective can help you with. We do very basic modifications to the SC fuel distributor to get it to feed race cars putting out 250HP. No idea what it would take to double that figure. I'm pretty sure what would be left when done would not be recognizable as an SC unit. You couldn't use the fuel lines or the injectors, or the pump, or the WUR. Anything can be done but boy is this going to get involved. It is true that not everyone has access to an EDM machine (I live in Rocket City so there are several) but the time and effort for research is tremendous. Protecting your business is critical. The internet has destroyed many a business by giving to the masses for free the toils of the few.

I expect to change the injectors, a new better pump is sourced. It appears the lines will flow enough, The fluid engineer is working out flows thru the lines. He wants to better understand the pressure system. Pressure affects velocity which affects volume.

Taking the pumps, filter and accum. Will do these tests as it would be in the car including the length of lines from tank to engine.

He will have the head tomorrow. I'm taking it off a car i have. I was unable to find a Bosch head on ebay for 6 cylinder porsche. Every place I called to buy one wants exchange. If somebody has one that needs rebuilding we will rebuild it for free if we can use it to learn.

The steel pump diaphrams have been traced and can be cut on the wire EDM. If we start it at the end of the day, we will wake up to a new one in the morning. stacked on top of each other we can cut several at a time. Waiting to hear what affect those play in the system. (I got new ones in a rebuild kit).

[awjens]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

The age of the technology is irrelevant, if someone has invested time and money into research why should they be despised for not wanting to give that away? Would you give away your toil for free that is your livelihood? I seriously doubt it. There is still a market for CIS mods, these folks make their living on it.

I can tell you this. If these folks had answered my questions or Gavin's, I wouldn't have this thread. I really wanted to send my head out and get it back in a few days with more flow. That didn't happen. Gavin was a few months ahead of me, and in those months came no answers. So now I am attempting to learn, and I am surrounded by engineers that are also learning. I don't know everything, and I am surely not asking CISflowtech or Eidleweiss. I don't know CISFlowtech, or Larry. He may be a great guy. He may have a great product and business. I do know they didn't help me.

[willtel]

I've got a cast iron fuel head off of a '79 930 engine if you need another one.

IMG_0890 by willtel, on Flickr

[kevin930t]

I have this one that you can play with

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

[awjens]

It's off to the lab. Trying first with a Lamda head.

[kevin930t]

Just let me no where to send it..Kevin

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

[awjens]

Originally Posted by willtel

I've got a cast iron fuel head off of a '79 930 engine if you need another one.

IMG_0890 by willtel, on Flickr

That head is from a 930? Are you selling it? I would have to look up the number....

[awjens]

Originally Posted by kevin930t

Just let me no where to send it..Kevin

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

Send it to

American Oak Resort
112 Jefferson
Houghton Lake MI 48629

The manager is always there when UPS comes.

I can prepay shipping if you like. If you need any kind of receipt I can fax/email you one...