Measurement Tools

[J P Stein]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jgparker
[B]Other JP,
Is it just me, or are there a lot of "JP"s on this board?
QUOTE]

Just enuff, me thinks

Since I do this stuff for a living (measure widgets), I find this thread interesting.
The only serious problem I have here is the telescoping gauge
(snap gauge). They are inaccurate in the hands of an amateur and incredibly slow in the hands of a pro. Since they a transfer gauge, the chances of making an error are doubled. You don't know what tedium is till you've been forced to use one to do a bore.

I would not consider checking a cylinder without a bore gauge and super mic (or jo blocks) to set the bore gauge. Best to hire it done (and you can learn something while watching).

[5axis]

Hello JP. good to hear your still measuring widgets. I am still making molds and things seem to be picking up.

Back to the topic. I would recomend that everyone buy a grade B jo block/gage block set. It's the best way to be sure you are getting the size you are supposed to be getting. +-.00005 for around $100
Some of the Porsche tollerances are pretty close and this will provide a good double check for your micrometers and your feel. Don't under estimate the feel part.

[J P Stein]

Originally posted by 5axis
Hello JP. good to hear your still measuring widgets. I am still making molds and things seem to be picking up.

I'll assume you're talking to this JP


Hey, 5
Not picking up for us'n.
I'll be checking widgets for at least another 50 days.
My number didn't come up but I got a 60 warn notice anyhew???

A clerical error, I'm told. I'm agin' it.
At best, I'll be on the bubble.

[HarryD]

Originally posted by J P Stein
I'll assume you're talking to this JP


Hey, 5
Not picking up for us'n.
I'll be checking widgets for at least another 50 days.
My number didn't come up but I got a 60 warn notice anyhew???

A clerical error, I'm told. I'm agin' it.
At best, I'll be on the bubble.

JP,

I dunno, but 60 days can be an eternity in your biz. Was that before or after the new military contract?

Sorry I don't get to see you in"action" on ole smokey. She is at Mike's awaiting a heart operation. I'm supposed to get the full diagnosis on Wed/Thurs.

For me, I learned early on, some folks have the touch and some don't. Those without (like me) are best off letting the other guys do this work for the really critical stuff. If I do want to do the work, I have discovered that quality tools make a great difference in your sucess. It is surprising how small manufacturing variances or errors in technique can results in messed up readings. Quality tools can help protect you from some of this since the error is more limited to the operator.

[Wayne 962]

I have a China dial gauge that works pretty good in the accuracy dept. I have a few Starrets too, but they are a bit too big for the cam timing job.

Dial bore gauges are the best for measuring the inside bores but remember to bolt together and torque the case through bolts and outside bolts before you measure!

-Wayne

[William Miller]

www.mcmaster.com
Just ordered the cheap dial bore gauge $112
I ordered thread inserts, Tap etc. they showed up in a day or two.
Very quick.

I also ordered some left hand drills, I have one broken exhaust stud to get out.

[911pcars]

"The chink tools seem to give good readings...."

Snowman,
I think you intended to compliment the accuracy of inexpensive tools, but you did it with a racial slur. Would you care to rephrase that? For future racial slurs, what part of your ethnicity makes measuring tools?

Sherwood

[john walker's workshop]

the redneck is showing.

[island911]

Originally posted by john walker's workshop
the redneck is showing.

Huh!?

. . so the RED is not part of the scarf.


interesting

[5axis]

Lighten up on snow a bit. PC sucks. My genetic predisposition is towards chasing sheep, invading France ,making precision Veapons, getting drunk (mmm single malt) and killing when there is nothing else to do.

Most of which I don't do.

back on topic A B&S test indicator, the holder part of a indicol, a Starret flexible holder, and a few Kant twist clamps. I know exactly what my clearance is.

[snowman]

Originally posted by William Miller
www.mcmaster.com
Just ordered the cheap dial bore gauge $112
I ordered thread inserts, Tap etc. they showed up in a day or two.
Very quick.

I also ordered some left hand drills, I have one broken exhaust stud to get out.

Sounds very interisting. Where did you find a bore guage for this price? Would be a valuable chink to add to my tool box.

PS, chink is NOT a racial slur unless used in that context, in mine it refers to very very inexpensive tools produced in the mainland.

[jgparker]

Pelican sells a Fowler Cylinder Bore Dial Gauge Set, 2" to 6", 0.0005" graduations, 6" depth for $95. (not a bad price for a US manufacturer) If you need to measure a smaller bore size than 2", ENCO has most of theirs on sale for ~$45. These are Chinese or equivalent.

http://www.use-enco.com/hotdeals/hd0603/40.pdf

[911pcars]

"PS, chink is NOT a racial slur unless used in that context, in mine it refers to very very inexpensive tools produced in the mainland.

Gee, does that mean it's okay to use any racial slang (e.g. nigger, kike, dago, slant-eye, etc.) as long as you're insensitive to what that term means to members (and non-members) of that ethnic group?

I'm afraid some folks confuse the demarcation between PC and a derogatory term. The fact that I pointed this out to you would indicate at least one person on this forum feels this way. If you so choose, go ahead and exist in your world.

To the other folks on this thread - sorry to digress.

Sherwood

[island911]

Well now I feel bad for making fun of rednecks.
I suppose "trailer Park trash" isn't okay either. . .hmmm. . .


Sherwood; take a step back and reallize most of us here see the idiousy of someone posting about 'throw'n sum chink tool in the landfill'.
In fact I believe that translates to 'will be getting angry, working on the car in the back yard.'

[911pcars]

Last I heard, rednecks are not an ethnic group nor is trailer park trash although there is probably a stereotype of this latter group. Some of my relatives are rednecks and they are not of the white persuasion.

I'm sure many on this forum understand the difference. I was merely trying to enlighten one person's perception.

Sherwood

[snowman]

Any tools are enlightening, no matter where they are made. For any other terms of enligtenment I usually watch The Benny Hill Show, or my favorite Southpark.

[William Miller]

I ordered the $112 Dial bore gauge from www.Mcmaster.com on Monday at about noon EST. It showed up at my house sometime on tuesday. (It was there when I got home from work.) My expectations were certainly exceeded! The 2" micrometer was missing from the order. But I found a note that said they were sorry but they had to get it from another wharehouse. It showed up UPS ground at about 10:30 am est this morning. Again they exceeded my expectations!

FYI, I live in Maryland, just outside D.C. The order I recieved this morning was UPS Ground from New Jersey.


Although it was advertised as a "economy model" in the cataloge it was made by Fowler. It's range is 1.4" TO 6". It has 2 heads with 2 different sets of anvals. I guess that's why it's a little more expensive than the fowler that I saw above is now sold by Pelican. (I didn't know they sold them.) I think I need the smaller range to measure the cam shaft bearing bores. It's still not small enough to measure the intermediate shaft bores in the case. My case has the bearings, I doubt these bores are a problem.

I bought some 4.5mm drill bits to do the measurement on the aluminum gear on the intermediate shaft.

Has anyone had experience replacing valve guides?
I bought a counterbore bit for about $15 that has a pilot and although it is not metric it's just about 13mm. (Isn't 1/2 inch just under 13mm?)

I was thinking of removing the guides myself.
The books state the the new valve guides have an external diameter that is larger than the bore in the head (13mm) and a internal diameter that is reamed out to the final dimension of 9mm.

The process is to remove the old guide, measure the bore and machine the new guide a nat's ass over for a press fit.

Does anyone know the exact dimensions of the new guides?
It doesn't seem like a big deal to get the old ones out.
If I take the heads to a machine shop does it make sence for me to supply the valves and the guides?

I forgot to mention. I was at home this morning because I was up till 3AM playing with my new toy. I measured my pistons and cylinders.
Sorry Wayne, but it turns out that although everything is worn some they are still within the acceptable tolerances for running clearance and the ring side clearance are good. I still might buy new pistons and cylinders, but that is less likely. The $112 I spent may have saved me $2500, but I have a great piece of mind knowing I measured them myself. I know what I have!

More parts to measure tonight!

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by William Miller
I was thinking of removing the guides myself.
The books state the the new valve guides have an external diameter that is larger than the bore in the head (13mm) and a internal diameter that is reamed out to the final dimension of 9mm.

The guy I use for heads does them for about $400 ($700 w/new valves) and returns them in a couple of days with the spring heights set etc. Years ago I talked to local machinist who did Porsche heads now and then for a shop I know. The machinist's labor alone would have been about the same. At that price it doesn't make sense to do it myself.
-Chris

[William Miller]

Is that the going rate for all the heads? What does it include?
Where and how much does it cost to ship back and forth?
Is there a machine shop thread on this bbs?
Thanks!

[snowman]

I replaced the valve guides in my 911T. Very straight forward if you use original size guides as you do not have to machine the heads to fit.

The guides can be removed with a punch. The punch should have a pilot and the major diameter must be slightly smaller than the od of the old guides. If I remember correctly these guides are removed by pounding them from the cylinder side outward towards the top of the head. Fairly simple and safe to do.

If you have differen't size guides the hole is critical. It sounds like you have the correct tool, a drill/reamer combo. Only use one designed for this application. These are usually sized to work with only one size guide. The press fit is about 0.002 to 0.003 inches oversize. The guides should have a taper to get them started, be cooled to as low as possible, dry ice is adviseable. Some kind of press fit lube is also highly desireable. Knowing the correct height (you measured the old ones first, right?) you simple pound them in using the same tool as you did to remove the old ones.

Finally you ream the inside to exact size required, check with actual valve for fit.

Additional note that I forgot. Run a ball hone thru the guide after the final size is obtained by reaming. Only two to four passes are needed. the purpose is to establish a cross hatch pattern to help improve oiling of the guide. Not a necessity but nice.

Then you can have or do the valve grinding of the seats to finish it up.

It only took me 4 hours start to finish, including the valve seat cutting (I used the Neway cutters).