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whats the word 350HP930? any progress? if not, how are the ladies treatin' ya? you ought to have gone to Carnval in Rio, you'd have gotten all the pelt you needed and then been able to focus on your rebuild again

Old 03-09-2006, 11:24 PM
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yeah Jack, whats been going on, lots of loving (q the barry white track) or lots of wrenching (on your engine)
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1980 SC soon to be big hp 3.3t powered 73RSR Replica (well, I'm keeping the engine but everything else is going )
Old 03-10-2006, 08:59 AM
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Hey guys!
havn't posted yet on this thread....however i did just enjoy a great read.... was kinda hoping to end about 4-6 pages form now with a dyno chart....lol....

I have to agree with both snowman and 350hp, i agree 100% with snowman that the tec3 system is MUCH better, excellance did an atriclie that said as much, however, in 350hp case, where he is doing the whole project himself, and his time at the moment isn;t worth a massive amount ( for example i would do it 350hp's way, whereas my dad would do it snowman's....and we are both capable of either....though his programming is Defitnly out of date....i just finsihed my last C++ and java courses)

so i don;t see the huge arguement, as as for those unbelievers snowman, i believe this was handled in a very poor mannor, expecially the issue of a challange, what would your opinon have changed if he had put it out there? i'm willing to bet nothing.

as for the arguement of carbs....i love them, and i'm an EE student. On the UVic formula SAE team (little race car), the first year i joined the team our car was a carbed 750cc gsx engine, we did a bunch of work, and it took me and other student about 2 weekend to get the carbs to produce and wickedly smooth powerband between 5000-13000 rpm...

the next year we had a fancy new ignition/injection system, though i was not heavily involved, (as my studies didn't allow, not out of want or ability), the setup took a very very long time to get working properly, and this was because all of the programming and sensors setup was done in house, in the end I called into yamaha ( iknow gsx is not a yamaha engine) canada as to a good basepoint setup, therefor allowing us to adjust to what we believe would work... this proved to be very little help as it was actually a sensor error that was making all of our readings useless....


but wow....i get off topic fast..... i guess i'm saying that i dislike it when threads get negative, i prefer to give people the benifit of doubt....what would someone gaiun from lying on an internet forum?


anyways.... 350hp lets see some progress...or some barrels as worded elsewhere....i'm 19 a fueled by testerone, gimmie cars or girls or i'll go elsewhere.
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Old 03-10-2006, 01:30 PM
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1980 SC soon to be big hp 3.3t powered 73RSR Replica (well, I'm keeping the engine but everything else is going )
Old 03-10-2006, 01:54 PM
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Old 04-06-2006, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by snowman
....Electromotive and other advanced systems have easy to use "mapping" software. No need to learn C, C++, basic, Unix, fortran, cobol or some real computer language. The less than desirable ones leave you to machine code your way thu specific processors, using no known "real" programming tools. ...theres the working environment, near mil spec, -55C to +125C or more, humidity, vibration, sand and dust, and on and on. Most of these so called systems cannot work outside the lab. And reliability, whats that?? FEMA whats that?? All real considerations for any real automotive app. .....
Here I am quoting myself. Just what the heck are any of you talking about when you say I am out of date??? Was it the C++? or was it the languages you probably don't even know about, like Fortran?? Both are irrelavant in this as a lot of these so called systems use a "user friendly" made up language that are nothing but "user friendly". You think I am out of date because I mention languages you have never heard of? Yet ignore the more current ones I mentioned?

Like I said give me a fkin break.

It is my PROFESSIONAL opinion, and I AM a PROFESSIONAL, that it is better to buy a well developed system like the Motec or Tec 3 systems. It is less expensive if your time is worth squat, it will work better, and you will not have to reinvent the wheel, and not everyone is good at inventing. Again this is only based on more than 35 years experience and being a cheep skate myself, ie a do it yourselfer, even if it cost a little more. In this case it will cost you a whole lot more.

And who in the commercial world has ever done a FEMA analysis? I will give you a clue it means Failure Effects and Modes Analysis. If you have never done one, you shouldn't be doing automotive electronics. Or even a simple worst case stress analysis? How about proper de-ratings, ie so the thing will work for 15 or 20 years like you would expect it to. I would be willing to bet a years salary, oh wait I'm retired, but anyway that none of the aftermarket stuff has had such analysis done to them. I would also bet that the mfgs HAVE done such analysis, and their systems are infinitely more reliable than the aftermarket ones. Its my guess, and its an all out guess that only the best of the aftermarket systems, like Tec 3 or Motec MAY have done this, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Sort of like using Microsoft Windows to drive your car, its ok if it Crashes, every day. Bill Gates is a very rich guy, who is to say he is wrong??? I happen to admire him, even if he IS wrong.

Last edited by snowman; 04-06-2006 at 09:12 PM..
Old 04-06-2006, 08:45 PM
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Old 04-07-2006, 06:35 AM
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Thanks snowman, now I remember why you are on the ignore list
Old 04-07-2006, 10:19 AM
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Please keep me on it.
Old 04-07-2006, 12:51 PM
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As much as i'm sure that you all know what your talking about and that everyones different oppinions are correct. This is 350HP's thread about HIS car and about how HE is going modify it.
If you want to argue about who can piss further up a wall or whos methods for getting it up there is best then please go and make a new thread about that.
It would be such a shame to ruin this highly entertaining and informative thread with un-related arguments.
I'm not taking sides or saying who is right. i just come here to hear from 350HP..
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Old 04-07-2006, 09:27 PM
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so whats been happening with the project Jack?
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Old 04-07-2006, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by snowman
Here I am quoting myself. Just what the heck are any of you talking about when you say I am out of date??? Was it the C++? or was it the languages you probably don't even know about, like Fortran?? Both are irrelavant in this as a lot of these so called systems use a "user friendly" made up language that are nothing but "user friendly". You think I am out of date because I mention languages you have never heard of? Yet ignore the more current ones I mentioned?

Like I said give me a fkin break.

It is my PROFESSIONAL opinion, and I AM a PROFESSIONAL, that it is better to buy a well developed system like the Motec or Tec 3 systems. It is less expensive if your time is worth squat, it will work better, and you will not have to reinvent the wheel, and not everyone is good at inventing. Again this is only based on more than 35 years experience and being a cheep skate myself, ie a do it yourselfer, even if it cost a little more. In this case it will cost you a whole lot more.

And who in the commercial world has ever done a FEMA analysis? I will give you a clue it means Failure Effects and Modes Analysis. If you have never done one, you shouldn't be doing automotive electronics. Or even a simple worst case stress analysis? How about proper de-ratings, ie so the thing will work for 15 or 20 years like you would expect it to. I would be willing to bet a years salary, oh wait I'm retired, but anyway that none of the aftermarket stuff has had such analysis done to them. I would also bet that the mfgs HAVE done such analysis, and their systems are infinitely more reliable than the aftermarket ones. Its my guess, and its an all out guess that only the best of the aftermarket systems, like Tec 3 or Motec MAY have done this, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Sort of like using Microsoft Windows to drive your car, its ok if it Crashes, every day. Bill Gates is a very rich guy, who is to say he is wrong??? I happen to admire him, even if he IS wrong.
I prefer aftermarket actually for that very reason. Manufacterers will update there stuff and sell them to you in there next model, otherwise your ***** out of luck with what you got in your present model. Of course you could go aftermarket if the stock system fails right . Plus aftermarket systems are constantly being updated by the people who use them, such as the megasquirt system. When was the last time you saw the manufacterers offering open source code for the base programming in there engine management systems?
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Old 04-08-2006, 08:08 PM
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The competative nature of the automotive market prevents them from offering an open source system at this time. Unfortunate, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

But for the hotrodder its aftermaket, cause its the only way. But please spare me on the megasquirt POS. Its no less than 30 years behind the times and requires bokoo hours to hope to make an obsolete system work. I have built and tested a MS system. Its for an 18 year old guy with zero bucks to do anything constructive. In that case its a great system, but otherwise, forget it.
Old 04-08-2006, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by snowman
Its for an 18 year old guy with zero bucks to do anything constructive. In that case its a great system, but otherwise, forget it.
22 actually. And i've compared the processing power of the ms2 with some others, and other than the big $ giants (motec) it had faster processing power. So i don't see why it's a POS. Maybe you can cite some specific reasons as to why it's a POS instead of touting about being a proffessional and trying this and that without backing it up.
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Old 04-09-2006, 08:05 AM
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The first and largest problem is the documentation, or lack of. The only way I could make sense of it was to ignore it and look at the actual circuitry and figure it out for myself. This fact alone leaves most people in a heap of trouble. Then thereís the endless list of "optionsĒ Itís so endless that itís useless, which option to use with what?? Not all that easy to decipher, sort of like "why didn't you just design it yourself to begin with?! Just making a suitable wiring harness is a daunting task, especially if you are not familiar with whatís needed to make one that will endure and not become the source of endless trouble. One huge problem with the MS system is that there is no coherent theory of operation presented, i.e. a short essay on how this particular system should operate, what each signal does, in detail and so forth. a lot of its there, but it ISN'T coherent. And exactly which MS system are we talking about? There are at least a dozen variations talked about, different ignition systems, different interfaces to different ignitions, the mixing of MS 1, MS 2, MS 3 builds and what does and does not work with them.

There is no mention of de-rating when the system was designed, i.e. guides as to how much to de-rate things, what if any de=rating was followed during the design. The components used are not high quality, nor compatible with an automotive environment, The entire thing as built needs to be put in a sealed container or conformal coated. I doubt the thing can withstand any serious vibration that might be encountered in an automotive environment. This doubt is based on my experience designing and actually testing hundreds of electronic devices for aircraft, missile, and even automotive type environments. I could make a wager that 20 percent of the components will fail or fall off the board during a 20 minute random vibration run, of say 0.04 g squared per Hz. This is an environment that you might see on a firewall under some conditions or in a non optimum location on a race car or pickup truck.

The sensors with MS is "Pick a sensor" and then try to figure out if MS will work with the ones you picked and if so which options to use to make them actually work.

Then with all these random variations, you still have to make your system work properly, which it may or may not. Since there is little commonality with all these variables its much much more difficult to troubleshoot problems. Combined with the lack of theory of operation, its like a real challenge. Don't believe me, ask someone who has successfully completed one and ask for an honest estimate of the hours put in to make it work. If the guys an automotive engineer, then multiply the hours by 5 or 10 x for the novice.

Pick up the lit on a Bosch Motronic version 1 and compare it to MS, Then find lit on say a 1990 Caddy with a Northstar engine, a modern design. Read up on the operation of the ignition and power train control systems, and then compare to MS. MS it like comparing a 1960s cap discharge system to a 1990 Porsche system. No comparison at all.

Best argument of all, if the MS system were any good the big buck guys would be using them instead of Motec. They might have big bucks, but beleive me they are still cheep tightwads when it comes to spending money on something that dosen't do anything in return for it.

Last edited by snowman; 04-09-2006 at 05:28 PM..
Old 04-09-2006, 05:18 PM
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Well from messing with tuning softwares for the tec, motec, and MS, they all are generally the same, just MS seems TO ME to have more freedom of choice. The tec to me is junk for the money, it's very comparable to the MS, and about 6 times the cost. The motec is badda$$, mainly because it has a tidal wave of features. Actually i do have a book on bosch fuel injection systems, and i've opened a few bosch ECUs up and to me it doesn't seem like there is anything special in them, but i've never opened one that was in the obd2 era so i imagine they are leagues more complicated now. But they are all nothing more than a heap of electrical components with one or two main IC's for doing calculations. They are actually on the same level of complication as the electrical circuits i used to do in highschool. And the last time i checked all the sensor are standard GM sensors, unless you want to run something else, then you must modify. Unlike electromotive at least you have that option, plus eletromotive refuses to give part numbers from gm for there sensors or other parts, so you cannot source them yourselves.
What's nice about the other systems is that if they break intially or are already broken, they'll be fixed without any sweat from your side of things. With a MS, you need to fix it yourself or pay someone else to figure it out.
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Old 04-09-2006, 08:15 PM
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Old 04-09-2006, 10:17 PM
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I never even got to the software part. What good is software if the hardware dosen't work???
Old 04-09-2006, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by snowman
I never even got to the software part. What good is software if the hardware dosen't work???
Seems to me like there are plenty of people who got it to work. www.msefi.com
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Old 04-10-2006, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Porsche Bob
pinch harder, pee higher
LOL!

Don't leave out further!

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Old 04-10-2006, 06:18 AM
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