Loctite 574 Tack Time ???

[viejopatron]

This may sound like a lame question:

Will Loctite 574 go tack-free (setup) in air?

The reason I ask is that 2 weeks ago, I assembled an aluminum case and the flash (sealant squeezed from joint) is still wet.

Assembly area enviornmentals are 55 - 65 F and 40 % RH.

[Eagledriver]

Don't know if there is a tack time for 574 or not. I do know that the sealants I use that are similar 518 and Permatex equivalent never set in the presence of air.

-Andy

[ChrisBennet]

Loctite 574 is an anaerobic sealant - it cures in the absence of air. The presence of metal also has something to do with it's hardening also i.e. I don't know if it will work between plastic joints without using an activator.
-Chris

[350HP930]

Yes, the stuff that squeezes out will remain gooey.

[Jeff Alton]

If you can read German, I think the bottle even says "the air in the bottle will keep the sealant liquid" or something close to that!

Jeff

[viejopatron]

Thanks Guys. That the kind of info I was looking for here. Also, nicht speken deustche, pero mi viejo-in-law tiene mucho tongues so I'll ask him for a translation over turkey this Thursday.

Happy holidays & remember the kids "over there".

[Henry Schmidt]

As stated in earlier posts, the 574 will live almost indefinitely in the open air.
I can tell you that 574 will harden and stick even when covered with oil.
A few years ago, before I new better I was working on a 944. The job was to reseal the oil pump. In doing so I had a pan under the engine with an inch or so of oil in it. While sealing the pump I spilled a glob of 574 into the pan. A few hours later I emptied the pan to find that the Loctite had hardened to the bottom of the pan. To my amazement it was actually hard to remove. Sold me and I've been a fan ever since.

[ErrieKruger]

Henry,

Why would 574 harden in the presence of oil , or did it only stick to the pan ? In that case , when sealing case halves , why would even a small amount of oil on the surface that needs to be sealed cause improper adhesion ?

Oil will form an anaerobic film around the 574 when dropped in the pan , and the 574 will then start to harden. That will be the same inside the sealed cases with the excess 574 that is squeezed out after sealing. Will this 574 also harden inside the case , or will it be dispersed in the engine oil ?

I have opened my case ( again - ) , and before sealing it , I want to give myself peace of mind in my choice of sealant.

Errie Kruger

[Henry Schmidt]

One of the magic things in life is that experience can help you grow.
We have learned since the privious post that the best way to seal an engine case is with a series of glue in speciafic locations.
We no longer use 574 to seal case halves.

Case sealing suggestions :

Outer case halves perimeter : Threebond 1194

Bearing web surfaces: Loctite 574

#8 Bearing O-Ring: Threebond 1211

Case Thru Bolts: Dow Corning 55 on Green Viton O-Rings

Flywheel Seal: dry

Front pulley Seal: dry

Intermediate Shaft Cover to Case: o-ring Dow 55, gasket style 574

Oil Breather Cover to Case: Loctite 574

Cylinders to Case: Curil T

Cam Towers to Cylinder Heads: Threebond 1104

Cam Chain Housings to Case: gaskets Loctite 574

Cam Chain Housings to Cam Towers: gasket Loctite 574

Cam Chain Housing Cover to Cam Chain Housing: Gasket Loctite574

Gaskets: Thin coat of Loctite 574

[ErrieKruger]

I have watched Nick Fulljames assembling a 911 engine , and a few times he made sure the surfaces are clean with a rag that I will not use cleaning my engine stand.

Do I start to get paranoid about all the warnings about nearly sterile conditions ? It is very important to work as clean as possible , but when does one go over the top ?

[ErrieKruger]

I have seen ( and printed ) your advice months ago , and respect that this is many years of experience talking.

My question was about near sterile work - I am even doing my build in my living room to avoid any possible contamination.

Thanks for replying - I am honored !

[Walt Fricke]

I seal my heads to the cam carrier by squeezing a thin bead of 574 around each opening, with little loops out around where each stud (or the locating pin) goes. Naturally, this stuff squishes out some, forming an orange gooey bead where exposed. Naturally, I wipe off this excess where it is easy to do so. But some of it is not easy to get to, so like the stuff inside the case I ignore it.

On teardown, there are usually some bits of hardened Loctite out where it squeezed out. So with enough heat and over time, it will harden. Or maybe it is due to oil leaking out of the blasted rocker shaft holes? Anyway, I think if you leave it long enough on a motor it will harden.

I've not specifically looked for what happens to the bit that squeezes out inside the case, but I think there is little if any to be seen. And I've not found it in filters that I could identify, unlike the blue Hylomar, which I have found. In any event, it is not something to worry about. That's what oil filters are for, if in a worst case scenario some excess hardens (oil anerobia?) and breaks loose, if the screen filter over the scavange oil intake doesn't catch it, the main oil filter will.

Of course, I wipe the external case squeeze out off, but that's mainly to avoid getting it on me.

[Walt Fricke]

Kruger

Wayne is an engineer. They like safety factors. He stresses sterile conditions, etc.

You watched a guy (who I assume does this with some frequency) do just the minimum to get the needed result.

Being cleaner than you need to be won't hurt anything other than your time budget.

But you really don't have to go overboard. You can build a good engine in a messy garage as long as you keep what needs to be clean clean. Alcohol wipes are a nice touch, but they are hardly essential to a dry engine build. Of course, blowing dust would be bad, but mostly that kind of thing can be avoided.

Oh - Old Big Cheese - have you understood from this discussion that you don't need to worry at all about the still wet flash sealant? You don't need to get German package inserts or whatnot translated. Though, last time I looked, yoiu could find everything Loctite (now part of Permatex?) had to say on their website. In English.

The one unanswered question has to do with the redisolvability of 574. I was taught, and so acted, that new 574 will dissolve a film of the old, so one needn't go overboard during a rebuild. Knock off the big chunks just in case and so stuff goes together easier, add new, and button it up. Saves rather a lot of time with gasket removers and such. Worked for me on my own engines. Others doubt this, pointing to an absence of any information to this effect from Loctite.

But that was not your worry. From the title of the question, one might have thought you applied the Loctite, then let things sit unassembled for two weeks, and were wondering if that was going to be a problem. Like most, I'd get worried about a long delay, but just don't let tht happen. It is nice that it is not like JB (Weld) Quick, where you have to hustle or it hardens on you, but why take chances of cottonwood seeds blowing onto it or something.

[txhokie4life]

My take -- if I'm doing it for myself -- I'll be damned if I'm opening everything up
again because I was too lazy to clean it up.

Whats 20% more time (or whatever) on top of 50 hours

Or I could do 50 more hours plus teardown again.

no thanks -- I'll take the time to do it "right"

Wish my engine room was squeaky clean -- but its not -- so I wipe and use
a lot of compressed air and alcohol laden toothbrushes and wipes.

m

[Cipotifoso]

Referencing the site: loctite.fast.de/si/FAQ.htm, it says:

Q: How long does it take for an anaerobic adhesive to dry?
A: Anaerobic adhesives do not contain solvents, which must dry. For an anaerobic adhesive to cure, it must be in contact with active metal ions and deprived of oxygen. Outside of a bonded joint, anaerobic materials will not completely cure. Inside the joint, cure rates can be controlled by changing product and / or activator. Heat can be used to accelerate cure rate.

It lists as "active metals"
Iron
Plain Steel
Nickel
Copper
Manganese
Bronze
Commercial Aluminium
(with copper content e.g. 6061)
Brass

Inactive materials include:
Plated Parts
Anodised Aluminium
Titanium
Stainless Steel
Galvanised Steel
Zinc
Pure Aluminium
Cadmium
Magnesium
Magnetite Steel
Natural or Chemical Black Oxide
Silver
Gold

Does this mean that anaerobic adhesives (loctite 574, 518) will not cure in a joint in a magnesium case (i.e., case to cam chain housing)? Does anyone's experience agree with this?

[Walt Fricke]

Well, 574 certainly cures when used with the magnesium alloy Porsche used for engine and transmission cases. No question there. I suppose there is enough aluminum in that alloy for this to happen?

[350HP930]

Yeppers, Walt beat me to the point that the alloying metals in most aerospace and automotive mag parts should set most anerobic sealants.

[Tom F2]

Originally Posted by 350HP930

Yeppers, Walt beat me to the point that the alloying metals in most aerospace and automotive mag parts should set most anerobic sealants.

True, but I get better results when I use Loctite's cleaner and primer, first.