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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
 
Carrera3.5L's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by asphaltgambler
In the works for me. 3.4: 98mm P/C's -9:8-1 with wedge dome, Super-Cup grind, turbo oil pump with turbo piston squirters, extrude intake, larger t-body, B&B 3.6 street headers, not sure about muff yet, probably contact Steve W. about chip

I have 93 octane where I live.
asphalt,

Sorry if I may have missed your motor's intended use somewhere, but I think the B&B headers are 1 3/4 in diameter. If true and unless this car will be used more on the track, this is too large for a 3.4 or 3.5. You will lose significant low and mid range with them. Stick with 1 5/8 for street use (under 7,000 rpm). The larger headers will only help you way up top and it looks like you may not have the cams to get you there.

If the motor will see more extended high rpm time (over 7,000) and you have the cams to get you there, the 1 3/4 will probably be better, although you will still lose low and mid-range.

You may want to research this area in more detail and try and get some other opinions to confirm or deny.

Ralph
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1988 Carrera w/ 3.5L Twin-Plug

2008 Cayman S (coming soon)
Old 12-07-2004, 09:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
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Ralph come on up anytime!! I am moving at the end of feb. but only about a couple of miles south of where I am now. The wine rack will be fully stocked at the new place.

I just bought a 964 dist. so I guess I am going twin plug!!! Where did you source your plug wires, and did you have to assemble them yourself? I looked throught your thread, and if it says, I missed it.

I really do want over 10.1 compression so I am thinking about using JE's. That I guess will limit me to 98mm and a 3.4. I don't really want to shell out for "nickies" in 100mm. Just have to locate a splitter and then I am ready to go!! My head guy will machine the heads and since they were rebuilt only about 10k miles ago they should be okay. Will put in some of Camgrinders springs though. (Trying to support the people who post here as much as possible) I already have 964 cams but am interested in trying John's Supercup cams......

I have access to a CNC machine shop and was thinking about making adapters for a 3.6 intake manifold. What do you think about that, or would the extrude hone be a better option. I don't want to leave too much power on the table untouched! I sell Steve Wong chips so getting a new one should not be a problem!!

6500rpm would probably be a tall enough powerband for me, but I will build it to be safe to 7300 or so with ARP or raceware rod bolts.

Can't wait to see the dyno runs!!

Cheers, Jeff
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Old 12-07-2004, 09:17 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #22 (permalink)
Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by catca
Ralph come on up anytime!! I am moving at the end of feb. but only about a couple of miles south of where I am now. The wine rack will be fully stocked at the new place.

I just bought a 964 dist. so I guess I am going twin plug!!! Where did you source your plug wires, and did you have to assemble them yourself? I looked throught your thread, and if it says, I missed it.

I really do want over 10.1 compression so I am thinking about using JE's. That I guess will limit me to 98mm and a 3.4. I don't really want to shell out for "nickies" in 100mm. Just have to locate a splitter and then I am ready to go!! My head guy will machine the heads and since they were rebuilt only about 10k miles ago they should be okay. Will put in some of Camgrinders springs though. (Trying to support the people who post here as much as possible) I already have 964 cams but am interested in trying John's Supercup cams......

I have access to a CNC machine shop and was thinking about making adapters for a 3.6 intake manifold. What do you think about that, or would the extrude hone be a better option. I don't want to leave too much power on the table untouched! I sell Steve Wong chips so getting a new one should not be a problem!!

6500rpm would probably be a tall enough powerband for me, but I will build it to be safe to 7300 or so with ARP or raceware rod bolts.

Can't wait to see the dyno runs!!

Cheers, Jeff
Jeff,

Congrats on your purchase. Be sure to do the vent update if yours doesn't already have it. Also, you may wish to change the drive belt if you are unsure about mileage on it, they are pretty darn cheap!

Talk to Pete at Andial about the splitter, you should be able to buy at the wholesale price and save a little bit of money at least.

I used custom length 8.5mm Magnecor wires. I had to approximate the lengths after the longblock was done and outer sheet metal was fitted. They made them up to my specs and I had them in a couple of days. Steve Brown over there is a good guy to deal with. Magnecor's aren't cheap, but the quality is very good.

If you do it yourself, you will need approximately 25' of plug wire to do the top and bottom and obviously the extra boots, connectors, etc. as well. My buddy Steve made up his own wire set, but he wanted to stick with black wires and I wanted something a tad "racier" (or is it "ricier"???). Anyway, I'm not sure how a 964 lower wire set would work on a 3.2 based motor, the wires may be too short or too long depending on how you decide to route them. Andial always builds their own 7mm wire sets as well.

Don't know if making adapters to use a 964 plenum is worth it or not. Maybe if you didn't already have a 3.2L plenum but you do...
Andial was getting 5-7 horsepower on their ENGINE dyno with the extrude honed 3.2L plenums, not a huge increase but every little bit helps. In my case, I didn't want to part with any extra money in this area. I had the 3.2L plenum so that is what I was going to use. I don't think you are going to gain huge power in the plenums no matter what plenum you decide to run.

Steve W. has already done many 3.4L Motronics (I think I'm his first 3.5L) and you know how easy he is to work with so you will be fine in that area. We are going to hook up sometime this weekend to get my motor perfect in preparation for the dyno late next week.

You guys and your 93 octane are killing me!!!

Ralph
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Old 12-07-2004, 09:55 PM
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93 octane? 94 available everywhere up here!!!! My only prob is heading to the track in Seattle I have not found anything above 92 down there.

Thanks again for all the advice and time you spend answering my questions!

Cheers, Jeff
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Old 12-07-2004, 10:03 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by catca
93 octane? 94 available everywhere up here!!!!
Yeah, but you guys are emptying your wallets for it. I have a couple of family members in White Rock and they go down to Blaine to get gas. They don't need 94 for their crapboxes.

Ralph
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1988 Carrera w/ 3.5L Twin-Plug

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Old 12-07-2004, 10:41 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #25 (permalink)
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Ralph, This is just our occasional fun car. I don't do auto cross or road course...yet. My goal is to have a real-world-happy street engine.

I have not purchased the headers yet, but my initial choice was to go with the larger primary tube size based on the increased % of displacement, increased air-flow from the aggressive cam profile and extrude intake. I could be wrong here as I am still learning what these engines like and what they don't like.

Maybe someone would advise here that this may have already been tried. Funny part is B&B makes really nice long-tube headers with smooth bends and collector transition but their mufflers are s--t!!
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Old 12-08-2004, 07:55 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #26 (permalink)
Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by asphaltgambler
Ralph, This is just our occasional fun car. I don't do auto cross or road course...yet. My goal is to have a real-world-happy street engine.

I have not purchased the headers yet, but my initial choice was to go with the larger primary tube size based on the increased % of displacement, increased air-flow from the aggressive cam profile and extrude intake. I could be wrong here as I am still learning what these engines like and what they don't like.

Maybe someone would advise here that this may have already been tried. Funny part is B&B makes really nice long-tube headers with smooth bends and collector transition but their mufflers are s--t!!
Asphalt,

It sounds like you pretty much have the same goal as I did: a real world happy street engine. Initially, I thought the same as you, bigger must be better and if the 3.6L guys are doing it, I'm darn close with a 3.5L.

I spoke with a number of people who have experience with what header diameter to run and all 5 unaminously said run 1 5/8" on a 3.4/3.5 UNLESS the car will be running at 7K+ on the track with more suitable cams, compression and and induction (i.e. carbs, mfi, efi).

The people I consulted with were my engine builder buddy Steve (formerly of PMNA), Dwain at Vision Motorsports, Dieter from Andial, Steve Weiner from Rennsport Systems and George Narbel (the gentlemen who built my headers). Plenty of experience to draw on there I think.

All said that I will lose significant low and mid range torque with 1 3/4" diameter and for a 99% street motor what is really most important?

I don't have the cams for 7K plus anyway. It would have been stupid for me to use 1 3/4" headers. I wouldn't see any benefit up top and would have felt the loss where I most want and need it.

One thing to note as well, I don't think these long-stroke cranks (i.e. 74.4 and 76.4) are reliable past 7K stock. If you are running those kinds of rpms consistently, I think you may want to invest in some additional crank prepping for reliability.

Hopefully John's supercup grind will be an improvement over the 964 and 20/21's and if they will pass smog as well then it is an even bigger win-win for him, but I still don't see where you are going to be making power over 7,000 rpm with those cams and the way the rest of your motors will be configured.

Ralph
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Old 12-08-2004, 02:09 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #27 (permalink)
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Ralph; again thanks for your input here. Looks like you've already explored that dirt road. Now making changes (on paper) to reflect my new found exhaust knowledge for these cars.
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'85 Guards Red Targa - F@#king Money Pit
'95 Road King w/117ci - No time to ride, see above
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'72 Yamaha CS5 200 Twin - Sold to fellow Pelicanite
Old 12-08-2004, 02:51 PM
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catca,
I just sold my splitter box to Fred Casarramona ("FredC"). He bought if for a mechanic friend Al Bass who then decided he didn't need it. Try PMing FredC, I bet he still has it. He's in Ontario.
-Chrois
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Old 12-08-2004, 02:52 PM
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Chris thanks so much, the first thing I did was search your name in the classifieds because I remembered you had one recently. Thanks so much for the info.

Jeff
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Old 12-08-2004, 03:00 PM
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Also, I used 964 plug wires for the lower plugs because I wanted to use 964 lower valve covers. I haven't gotten the 964 valve covers to work yet but I can tell you this about the 964 plug wires:
- The connectors don't have the little rubber skirts
- The wires have really thick insulation and then another layer on top of that. I think they are designed to take the heat. Very nice in that regard.
- I had to buy a complete set (top and bottom) even though I was only using the bottom. They were probably expensive.
-Chris
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Old 12-08-2004, 03:41 PM
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Thanks for the info, I noticed on your sight that you had wanted to run the later covers but there has not been an update lately. I saw you misadventure with the JE's. Would you use them again?

Jeff
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Old 12-08-2004, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by catca
Thanks for the info, I noticed on your sight that you had wanted to run the later covers but there has not been an update lately. I saw you misadventure with the JE's. Would you use them again?

Jeff
Yes, I'd probably use JE's for my own motors again. The JE's were in no way at fault in the problems with that motor as far as I'm concerned. Lean is mean, very very mean sometimes.
-Chris
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Old 12-08-2004, 04:15 PM
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Thanks
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Old 12-08-2004, 08:22 PM
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