what can be done w/ a 2.2?

[}{arlequin]

I don't know whether it's a T, E, or S.... just stumbled upon it and the owner just took the carbs off of it for a different build. So there is a complete, apparently strong-running (man is legit, no reason for deception) 2.2 w/o any induction. What could this engine be built into? Is 2.7 the biggest it can get? Does it *have to* use carbs or can some form of CIS be utilized too?

No, I don't have a big budget so this would be something I'd be doing at my leisure, using whatever parts I can source... so if a 2.8 rsr is possible but the P/C's are in the unobtainium then I'm not really interested in that. I'm looking for some reliable power/torque that amounts to more than my stock 73.5 CIS T motor.

[Jim Richards]

Hahaha! Dave, are you getting into the NoVA arms race, too?

[jluetjen]

Anything from mild to wild. Given your 2.4TK baseline and an eye on the budget, I'd suggest the following:

Using the existing case and heads: 2.2S JE pistons and E or Solex cams, throw on a pair of Zeniths. For some more money you can go up to 85mm pistons for a few more cc's.

If you want to crack the case and replace the crank with a 2.4/2.7 crank, you can then easily build up something like a 2.4E with carbs. Since your on a budget -- Zeniths will still be fine. If you really want to go nuts, keep your eye on eBay for a used MFI system. But the $'s are going up.

If you want to do more then that, you'll most likely just want to start with the 7R case from your 2.4TK and build up a 2.7RS style motor with either carbs or MFI.

[}{arlequin]

Thanks John. Guess I'll still sit this out and wait for a nice 3.0 to yank my wallet.

Originally posted by Jim Richards
Hahaha! Dave, are you getting into the NoVA arms race, too?

Well, Jim, the thought has crossed my mind from the first day that I realized I want a longhood. (For now I'll live vicariously through your build up )

The Open Lift Day at RJ's heavenly garage didn't help things, especially when I saw a recently dropped, lonely and unwanted, 2.2 sitting on the floor. I mean really, how much could that thing be worth to him.....?

[jluetjen]

}{arlequin;
A carb'd high compression 2.2 with solex cams would be a pretty significant step up in power from what you've got now. The torque would be down a little bit because of the reduction in capacity, but most likely not by much given an increase in CR and the more aggressive cams. Besides the "kick" when the motor comes on-cam is worth the price of admission!

[Wayne 962]

There are big differences between the 2.2T and 2.2E/S motors, with the T having these negative characteristics:

- Weaker mag case (not a 7R)
- Zenith carbs
- Non-counterweighted crank
- Small port heads
- T pistons
- T cams

So, if you want to build a good, powerful motor, you don't really want to start with a 2.2T. You'd have to toss out the case, crank, carbs, heads, and pistons. After that, there's not much left. 2.2T motors are best left as 2.2T motors...

-Wayne

[jluetjen]

Wayne; did the 2.2E's and S's already have the 7R case? I thought the 7R case didn't appear on the scene until some time in '74.

Zenith carbs? I'm not aware of them being any better or worse then Weber 40's with the exception of there being fewer jetting options. But if you're clever and on a budget, I believe that the Zeniths will be as good as the Webers if you modify Weber venturis to fit the Zeniths. Given that Zeniths are available for a couple of hundred bucks and Webers seem to be starting above $500 + manifolds, it's certainly not a bad trade-off.

Non-Counterweighted crank? Lots of guys race with them. For street use I'm not aware of any issues with them.

Small ported heads? Are they 32 mm's or less? If their less it would most likely be best to open them up a bit. If their 32 mm's, they should be fine for the street use in the application that }{arlequin described.

T Pistons: OK, a little low on CR. If anything I'd suggest getting a new set of pistons and cams and "let 'er rip!". (Disclaimer - of course the hidden costs still exist of having the cylinders freshened and doing all of the normal "top end" rebuild stuff.

Keep in mind not all of us has the budget to replicate a factory RSR. Many of us have to be clever and keep an eye on a total budget that may be less then what some people on this BBS spend on tires! That's OK! All he wants is something that's more fun then a 2.4TK. That shouldn't be too difficult.

[beepbeep]

Buy Mega Squirt controller, six used fuel injectors (~250cc),used Garrett T3 turbo and some tubing.

Place turbocherger on the left/back side of engine, slightly raised, let oil drain from turbo go to lower part of chain cover. Cut & paste existing heat exchangers until they "blow" into turbo, take oil-line from turbo by slicing into pressure switch.

Use sheet tubing (or maybe Carrera plenum, if you find one) to build intake, add and old intercooler if you have one (old SAAB 900 IC costs around 100$ and is physically small), set boost to ~0.6 bar, tune MS accordingly and you'll have a peppy little engine.

It's originally low C/R would be just fine when turbocherged, just like it "small" ports (they are as big as ones on 930). Cams are allright as well. All this should cost around 1000$ in parts... plus some work (nothing too complicated). Even if everything blows up (it shouldn't) you haven't spent much and you would shurely learn a lot during process. You should have around 220hp w/o problems with this setup.

[}{arlequin]

LOL, beep.... that would be a fun ride!

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. It would seem like too big of an expense/effort to go through all that just to end up w/ *somewhat* more power (but no tq) over what I have now. It just looks like the overall cost in finding a 3.0 and spending some $ on freshening it would be lower that building a small displacement screamer from scratch.

Looks like I also have some reading to do to catch up on what engine parts are the desirable ones...

BTW, is there such a thing as a short stroke 3.0? Maybe turned into a 3.2? Can the 3.2 survive w/o twinplugging?

Thanks for the responses.

[COLDBASS]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

So, if you want to build a good, powerful motor, you don't really want to start with a 2.2T. You'd have to toss out the case, crank, carbs, heads, and pistons. After that, there's not much left. 2.2T motors are best left as 2.2T motors...

-Wayne

Good Advice. I and my wallet appreciate your POV.

Bob

[Jim Richards]

Originally posted by jluetjen
Wayne; did the 2.2E's and S's already have the 7R case? I thought the 7R case didn't appear on the scene until some time in '74.

My Jan 73 build 911E has a 7R case. I don't know of anyone with an original 72 engine case that's a 7R. So, my hunch is that the 2.2's had earlier rev. case.

John, everything I've heard echos what you've posted. A 2.2, even a 2.2T, can be made into a real fun engine!

[BK911]

If you stroke a 2.2T to a 2.4 you'll have a 2.4T with ~2.4S compression. Definitely an engine with an awesome torque curve for street driving. The early mag cases are fine for the ~135hp. The zeniths will work fine too. The only real problem with the 2.2T's was the dizzy.

7R cases were available in 73. As far as I know, all 73.5T's had them, and some later 73E and S's.

[kucharskimb]

2.2 E stroker HP output

really happy with this set up as a daily driver. pulls all the way from low rpms to 7K.

dyno graphs are at the bottom of the post.

matt

[}{arlequin]

that's a great link, thanks. Now it makes me wonder what type of 2.2 is lying around that guy's garage. Maybe it's an S?! Probably not but even if it's an E I'd have to seriously consider

[Wayne 962]

Originally posted by jluetjen
Wayne; did the 2.2E's and S's already have the 7R case? I thought the 7R case didn't appear on the scene until some time in '74.

No, they didn't have it either. My point was that the T motor isn't a good starting platform for a higher-power engine, with the weaker case being just one of many negatives. 2.7 cases are plentiful...

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Originally posted by jluetjen
Zenith carbs? I'm not aware of them being any better or worse then Weber 40's with the exception of there being fewer jetting options. But if you're clever and on a budget, I believe that the Zeniths will be as good as the Webers if you modify Weber venturis to fit the Zeniths. Given that Zeniths are available for a couple of hundred bucks and Webers seem to be starting above $500 + manifolds, it's certainly not a bad trade-off.

That's the whole point - they don't make good carbs for non-standard engines because you can't easily rejet them to your application. You're kindof stuck with what you have, which will be inadequate for the task. Webers run about $600-$1000 depending upon whether they need to be rebuilt or not. In general, the Zeniths are indeed a very good carb, but can't be easliy modified.

Originally posted by jluetjen
Non-Counterweighted crank? Lots of guys race with them. For street use I'm not aware of any issues with them.

I've heard this before, but I've never met anyone who actually does use them. This may be an urban myth?

Originally posted by jluetjen
Small ported heads? Are they 32 mm's or less? If their less it would most likely be best to open them up a bit. If their 32 mm's, they should be fine for the street use in the application that }{arlequin described.

Yes, 32mm ports - you'd have to open these up if you wanted to increase HP. It's best to start with E or S heads.

Originally posted by jluetjen
T Pistons: OK, a little low on CR. If anything I'd suggest getting a new set of pistons and cams and "let 'er rip!". (Disclaimer - of course the hidden costs still exist of having the cylinders freshened and doing all of the normal "top end" rebuild stuff.

T pistons are basically neat paperweights for your desk. Just about useless in anything but a stock 'T' spec rebuild.

Originally posted by jluetjen
Keep in mind not all of us has the budget to replicate a factory RSR. Many of us have to be clever and keep an eye on a total budget that may be less then what some people on this BBS spend on tires! That's OK! All he wants is something that's more fun then a 2.4TK. That shouldn't be too difficult.

You missed my point. I'm not advocating an RSR - just stating that the costs of modifying the T engine far outweigh the benefits. The T motor is a poor platform to start looking for additional power. It's best to sell a complete running T-spec engine and go look for a used 2.7 if you're hunting for more power. I wouldn't spend any time or $$$ modifying a T motor - it's just not worth it, there are too many parts on it that either need to be tossed/replaced or modified.

It would be difficult and costly to modify a 2.2T motor to significantly exceed the power of a 2.4 CIS engine. Again, best bet is to buy a good 2.7 engine, or rebuild one.

-Wayne

[dtw]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
I've heard this before, but I've never met anyone who actually does use them. This may be an urban myth?
-Wayne

Cole Scrogham at G&W Motorsports built 2.0 spinner motors with these cranks before he moved out of 911-based racing.

[}{arlequin]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
Again, best bet is to buy a good 2.7 engine, or rebuild one.

-Wayne

I came across this but I was late...
For sale Ready to run rebuilt 2.7 longblock
So much temptation out there.

EDIT: is there, or has there ever been, a CIS engine that works with ITBs, or is that purely a set-up for cars w/ a computer brain?

[austin552]

I am in the same boat with a 2.2T. I think a 3.0 will be my choice for purchase and rebuild. This will take a while so the 2.2l has to get kicking for now.
http://members.cardomain.com/austin5522004

[Wayne 962]

Originally posted by }{arlequin
EDIT: is there, or has there ever been, a CIS engine that works with ITBs, or is that purely a set-up for cars w/ a computer brain?

I don't quite understand the question, as Webers have ITBs, and you can put Webers on a 2.7 CIS...

-Wayne