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Funny Because:
I did the same thing. I was getting ready to seal up the cases and when I looked at my #8 nose bearing I realised it was missing the dowel pin. I had to order one from porsche. Kirk |
Even worse, I had mine last week!
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That hurts!
I didn't even remember there being one there, so I don't know where mine got lost. probably during case cleaning. It hurts your feelings a little more when you know its still in the garage somewhere. On the positive side, its only a couple bucks. Kirk |
Sunday nap - Case is sealed!
While the 2 year old slept, another milestone was reached. My .25 part arrived late in the week and I was ready to continue sealing up the case.
Ready to do the sealing http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153104886.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153104903.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153104923.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153104937.jpg My "crew" of 11 year old boy and 40yr old virgin engine builder, doing the case thru bolt torque. Don't get too upset, but that is his M Coupe in the background :) http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153104956.jpg Looks like good squeeze out from the case sealant http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153104969.jpg |
I used the sealing strategy outlined here:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/284737-complete-engine-sealant-thread.html This stage required: Outer Case Halves: Threebond 1104 Bearing Saddle Surfaces: Loctite 574 #8 Bearing (balancer end) O-Ring: Threebond 1211 Case Thru Bolts: Dow Corning 111 on Green Viton O-Rings Balancer Seal: Curil-T I used a few changes from the Wayne book. I put the engine assembly lube on the crankshaft and intermediate shaft instead of on the bearings in the left engine case. I also left the rear main seal until later in the process. Overall, things went very smoothly. The use of a slightly modified "Sharpie" cap was key for the thru bolt o-rings, this appears to completely replace special tool 9500! |
Missed this shot
Here is the left case half with the sealant applied:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153105692.jpg |
Looks great!
I wish I had more time to take pics of my case with the sealant applied. Where is the 'money shot' of the engine sealed up with the two timing gears sitting on the chains? Isn't that part of the picture prerequisites? :) Kirk |
I have not cleaned the gears yet, so that pic is not yet available. "Coming soon".
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Nice progress Chris, I really appreciate you and Kirk posting your progress as I will be tearing down a 3.6 I picked up from LvSteveH for my 3.5 turbo engine. I'm assuming that the sealant squeeze out that occurs in the case isn't a major issue as long as you don't go overboard applying it? Thanks, Mike
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Mike - I think that you want to see some small amount of squeeze out, that assures that you have covered the entire surface. As you noted, going overboard is not desired with the threebond products, but with the loctite it is likely harmless since it will not harden very well in the presence of air. I'm going to take a look at the excess today, the threebond instructions note 3 days to full strength.
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Sat Afternoon
Some more progress. Installed the Factory Racing Studs ( Edit: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/270137-name-stud.html ). Had already chased the stud holes with a bottom tap before cleaning the case. Used Blue Loctite per Henry. Got them mildly tight with a Facom stud tool (uses metal rollers to pinch the stud on a non-threaded section. Studs measured out correctly per the spec book and factory manual for both uninstalled length and installed height.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153626053.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153626068.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153626079.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153626092.jpg |
Late evening
Installed the Oil breather cover, used 1211 on both sides of the gasket.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153626308.jpg Earlier today I installed an upgrade - the engine mounted oil filter (993 part) and 965 Oil sensor mounting plug, along with a new blockoff plug on the upper oil galley. This involved pulling the _very_ large factory blockoff plugs (machine shop had to drill, tap and slide hammer), cleaning up the sealing ring surfaces on the case, installing 3 8mm studs (I happened to have some stainless steel ones...) and then fastening the housing to the case. This evening I tried to install the oil pressure and temp senders. The pressure sender worked fine. The temp sender does not have matching threads for the 965 part. I'm using a numeric oil temp guage in stock 87 gauges, so this might be a minor annoyance to get right. Does anyone have any clues on the best way to solve this one? I suspect I need to get a 965 oil temp sensor and see if that is at all compatible with the guage. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153626472.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153626502.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153626517.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153626527.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153626538.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153626680.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153626692.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153626708.jpg |
Setback and going forward
Well - I had a bit of a setback. Seems the RSR pistons I had would not accept the stock 964 rod. I only found this _after_ assembling the case (see above). Ouch. So, time for new rods. LN Engineering has excellent rods from R&R that I think look "nice" and are available. So Charles sent me a rod (_very_ nice), and I did a deck height measurement to see if the pistons possibly require a longer rod (I am leaving nothing to chance at this point). Deck height using the Wayne book method is 1.4mm. This is great for a stock engine, a bit high from a high performance engine standpoint (using the book as a guide).
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1154390216.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1154390238.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1154390251.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1154390264.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1154390278.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1154390290.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1154390301.jpg |
The trials and tribulations of the unfortunate discovery/oversight are documented here http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/294971-964-3-8-rsr-small-end-rod-side-clearance-piston-how-much-not-enough.html
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Another thing I found was that the racing studs do not neck down after the threads end, so I will need a hardened washer (perhaps from an older engine - I will check my parts boxes) under each head nut (assuming the stock 964 head nuts) to assure that I am not trying to cut threads into the stud material.
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I have now spent more time taking measurements around the piston and averaging them. I think with some degree of certainty that my deck height is 1.30 mm. So all other things being equal, I want less deck. Machine the bottoms of the cylinders is one way to get that, or the top for that matter. An eliptical rod bushing, or one that is set higher (closer to the small end of the rod) is another - I like that idea since I need new rods...
Thoughts? |
I found the deck height was tightest right at the cylinder wall. I ended up placing a small piece of solder sideways in the curve of the cylinder, then crushing it and reading the deck height.
Your solder doesnt look like its getting right to the edge? Or is it just the way the pics show it? Kirk |
Quote:
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Have you thought about just ordering a set of Carillo rods? They could probably get them for you pretty quickly. Any word on how long it will be until this other shop is setup to get them to you?
Kirk |
Quote:
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LN engineering has them, and I am happy with the quality and weight. And Charles has been a very helpful person with my project so far.
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Chris,
How's the rebuild coming along? Did you end up buying all that 3.8RSR stuff on ebay you posted a while back? I was following auction just for fun just to see how much the stuff would sell for then they all ended early. |
The RSR ebay stuff was not me. I would have liked to get the pistons as spares - but someone apparently bought everything before the auction ended. I am now waiting for my R&R Rods from LN Engineering. Once I have those in house, I will deck height all the cylinders and decide if I need to make other changes.
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Rods are here!
My R&R rods from LN Engineering arrived on Friday and I got some time to put them on the crank today. First I had to take the recently assembled bottom end apart (ugghh), since I could not get my rod bolt stretch guauge on the bolts otherwise. So I will be cleaning that up and doing the case assembly again :mad: I will start a separate thread on what I found taking a freshly sealed case apart without running it - some sealant issues are interesting!
The rods are nice, but the weights are not as close as the factory rods (will post weights later). I got them installed on the crankshaft without incident. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1157328770.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1157328792.jpg Bolt Length http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1157328812.jpg ARP 2000 Bolt Base Diameter http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1157328836.jpg Bolt Small Diameter http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1157328863.jpg Crank Done http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1157328888.jpg |
Hey Chris,
Excuse me if this a "well duh!" comment, but is up with the measuring of the rod bolt length with the calipers instead of something more accurate? I keep a record of unstretched rod bolt lengths in case I reuse the rod bolts later. -Chris |
Quote:
FWIW, the bolt lengths only varied by about .002-.003 mm |
Some more progress
OK, got to spend some time while the wife was on a biz trip getting the case back together (again!), used the warm family room for this... I then took half a day on Sunday (and a late night) getting things further along. I now have almost a long block, still need the cam boxes, rockers and the like installed. But finally more progress! Pics will follow to make post complete :)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163457166.jpg |
Chris,
I am in SE PA, and I envy you!! If I brought my 3.7 build into my family room, I would be living in the race trailer!! Andrew |
Quote:
Actually, it was still set up, and my wife helped me do the case seal. But then she banged her shin in the vincinity - and it was back to the garage for the whole setup, quick! |
My crew Cheif (wife) also gets her hands dirty on the rebuilds, but I have been told that I am only allowed to bring the slicks in fron the cold. I was going to try and convert the walkin closet into an engine/gearbox room, but the smell might give it away, unless I use the sock odor to mask it.. Hmmm... An idea??
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What a fantastic thread! I am doing a resealing of my SC engine, with no rebuild and it is so depressing seeing how dirty my engine looks compared to yours! :)
I dream of doing a complete rebuild like you one day with all clean and machined parts. Just fantastic! :):) |
Seeing the pics of your engine hanging over your hardwood floor made me laugh. I would get killed for that in a hurry!
I've got about 700km on my motor since I finished the rebuild, but I am taking a bit of a break from porsche work. I have a leak at one of the oil lines by the thermostat, and I am too lazy to fix it right now. (That and it keeps snowing here which saps my energy.) Kirk |
Required Imagery
Here is one nights work on the short block:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163552440.jpg Mahle RSR Rings - if you look very closely they say Goetze on them... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163552528.jpg Factory 964 Wrist Pin Circlips. These did NOT fit the RSR piston, the wire was very slightly too large. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163552599.jpg The circlips provided did not fit either, the end with the locking tab stuck out too far when in the locking groove. Sigh. So I had to modify each one with a dremel cutoff wheel. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163552697.jpg Here is the RSR lightweight piston and ring set ready for assembly |
Images Continued
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163552796.jpg
After checking the ring gaps, installed rings on piston by hand, did not use a spreader tool. I installed the circlip in the right side of each piston. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163552851.jpg I have had very good luck using this inexpensive ring compressor http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163552900.jpg Here they are, ready for install!!! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163552941.jpg And here is 1-3 bank, with heads matched... |
And now...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163553316.jpg
The fun really begins - getting those blasted pins installed. Note the anti-contamination wrap (oxford cloth shirt) http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163553425.jpg Whew! One bank down. I used Curil K-2 on the base of the cylinders instead of a sealing ring, case was machined for larger 102mm jugs. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163553455.jpg Got the anti-knock bridge installed loosely. But I did not remember to put the lower air deflectors on... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163553619.jpg [img] Fortunately, I had removed the deflector mount studs for case machining, so I was able to slip them in after the heads were on. Ready for cam towers! |
End of the night
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163555101.jpg
Heads and Cam towers on and torqued. Note the baby monitor, I am also watching the 2 year old :D http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163555123.jpg OK, time for some rest! |
And the prequel
Here is the sequence used to fit the R&R Rods into the case. I assembled the crankshaft, then installed the oil pump and intermediate shaft, etc in the case. Installed the crank, assumbled the case and installed pistons and cylinders on 2,3, 5,6 and checked for interference. There was some interferance with the oil pump. Since the rods had been balanced already, I chose to clearance the pump. Carrillo rods are the same shape, and they require either grinding the rods or clearancing the pump 0.5mm. Once I finally decided to do it, the clearance was easy to get, and I got a look at a disassembled pump to be sure I was not removing material in a thin area.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163569555.jpg Assemble, Assemble - Doh! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163569579.jpg Interference http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163569651.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163569736.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163569760.jpg Grind Pump Case :eek: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163569625.jpg Interference is gone... |
Prequel Part Deux
Here the case is assembled (again!) with sealant and torqued up. Wife was a big help on this part!
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163569909.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1163569932.jpg Short Block - meet white couch. Scary :) |
Nice thread compilation Chris, thanks. I'll be embarking on my rebuild shortly. Can't wait to see how your 3.8 performs:)
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