The Complete Engine Sealant Thread...
 

OK folks, I did some searching and was not able to really find the clear, definitive combined wisdom on sealing up the engine.

So, I am requesting it here, in the hopes that this thread will be searchable and valuable to others besides myself in the future. Since I will be sealing up my 964 derived engine next week (fingers crossed), I do have a short term vested interest :)

Here are the engine items that I would appreciate hearing about the most sucessful sealing methods. _Please_ add any areas that I have omitted!

Outer Case Halves: Threebond 1104

Bearing Saddle Surfaces: Loctite 574

#8 Bearing (balancer end) O-Ring: Threebond 1211

Case Thru Bolts: Dow Corning 111 on Green Viton O-Rings

Flywheel Seal: DRY

Balancer Seal: DRY

Intermediate Shaft Cover to Case: ThreeBond 1211

Oil Breather Cover to Case: ThreeBond 1211

Cylinders to Case: Curil K-2 or ThreeBond 1211

Cam Towers to Cylinder Heads: Threebond 1104

Cam Chain Housings to Case: Threebond 1104

Cam Chain Housings to Cam Towers: Threebond 1104

Cam Chain Housing Cover to Cam Chain Housing: Threebond 1104

Gaskets: Thin coat of Loctite 574

Thanks a lot folks, I really appreciate the feedback!

EDIT: Most Popular solutions for sealing added to each item above

Re: The Complete Engine Sealant Thread...
 

Outer Case Halves: ThreeBond 1104 applied to the case half NOT attached to the engine yoke

Bearing Saddle Surfaces: Nothing

#8 (?) Bearing (balancer end): Threebond 1211 (very thin coat on the number eight bearing saddles and keep the o-ring)

Case Thru Bolts: Use the green vitton o-rings lubed with Dow Corning 111

Flywheel Seal: Curil-T

Balancer Seal:???

Intermediate Shaft Cover to Case: Loctite 574 (smear it lightly on both sides of the gasket)

Oil Breather Cover to Case: Loctite 574 (smear it lightly on both sides of the gasket)

Cylinders to Case: Curil-T

Cam Towers to Cylinder Heads: ThreeBond 1104

Cam Chain Housings to Case: Loctite 574 (smear it lightly on both sides of the gasket)

Cam Chain Housings to Cam Towers: Loctite 574 (smear it lightly on both sides of the gasket) and Dow Corning 111 on the o-ring

Cam Chain Housing Cover to Cam Chain Housing: Loctite 574 (smear it lightly on both sides of the gasket)

I used the Dow Corning 111 on most of the other o-rings, too.

I Hope to start my engine like in the next couple of days...I'll report back if there are leaks

I should have added -

Bearing Thru Bolt Locations inside case:

on the thru bolts, there a two different colored o rings which are best? Also where do you get some of these sealants?

The green ones are best and I got all of my supplies from Henry Schmidt of Supertec Performance.

Question about threebond on the case halves. Why does it go on the case half not attached to the yoke?

Also, is threebond 1211 only used on the nose bearing? Research on this boards shows some (experienced) builders use Curil T or nothing but the Viton ring with oil.

thanks,

-Rob

I applied my sealant to the case half that DID NOT have the permiter studs, and that's the left case half...the one not normally attached to the engine holding fixture. You can do it how you like. It just seemed easier to apply, rather than going around all of those studs.

Research will also show ThreeBond 1211 on the nose bearing. And yes, only use the 1211 on number 8. I pretty much followed Henry Schmidt's sealing methods.

Keep in mind, I'm only stating what I did and used...it's not gospel. Everyone has their own technique and methods.

Henry's methods are what I wanted to use. I emailed him my parts list needed, including soliciting his sealant suggestions, but no response. So here we are :)

Some useful threads:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/237341-case-sealant-8-main-bearing.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171788&perpage=20&pagen umber=1
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=210161&perpage=20&highl ight=case&pagenumber=1
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/267378-threebond-case-sealant-experiment.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/256281-thru-bolt-o-rings.html

Make sure you edit the first post with findings so it's all in one place.

As others have stated, its very challenging (and frustating) to learn all the different methods employed but great engine builders and then to determine which methods to follow yourself - information overload!

Personally I've done a lot of second guessing. Sealants, procedures, no sealant on the main webs, no loctite on the rod bolts, curil T on the nose bearing, etc, etc...

An example is the recommendation to use 574 on the main webs or the main journals. Since I've never done a 911 rebuild I'd probably mess that up - since some experts don't use it there I'm thinking I may do the same and hence less chance of my screwing that part up.

I'm thinking the same about the nose 8 bearing. Do I want to buy a tube of 1211 just for that bearing when some experts use nothing or a bit of curil T? Like I said, I'd probably mess that up so I'm leaning on going with Viton and oil like some experts recommend. I would fully trust Henry to use all those sealants correctly but not myself. And Henry is a very busy guy and to expect him to baby me along on those tasks might not be fair.

I am going to use threebond on the case perimeter since that seems to be an easier product to apply and work with than 574.

Some consolidation that will be edited to the first post later:

For many years we used 574 Loctite but now ( for the last 4 years) we use ThreeBond 1104 and 1211 for perimeter sealing on the case ( 1211 on # 8 main bearing) Where the case joins at the through bolts we use 574. For the the cam towers we use 1104 and where there are gaskets we use a very thin coat (very thin mind you) of 574. On the cylinder base gaskets we use Curil T. Four glues equal no leaks. Over kill ? MAYBE No leaks GUARANTEED.

O-ringing the case spigot seems to be the best repair. We have been using ThreeBond 1211 on 3.6 cylinders bases when it is not possible the o-ring the case spigot.
It has worked well and would recommend this process if o-ringing is not an option.

The best thing I can say to guarantee your success is get your cases as clean as possible. CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN
We use MEK and a stainless tooth brush to clean all sealing surfaces, but be careful, MEK is poison and it will make you sick if you get it on your hands or breath it. Please!! Use gloves and a mask.



__________________
Henry Schmidt
SUPERTEC PERFORMANCE

a thick layer of 574 often ends up being a thick layer between the case halves. get all the tools ready and all the orings on the studs and don't waste any time. tighten the perimeter nuts first and then the mains. with other sealers, i would normally tighten the mains first, but the anaerobic quality of the 574 is tricky and may set up faster than you think when case halves are assembled. yes, the 730/731 product does skin over quickly, and has a tendency to not stick as well to the half it wasn't applied to. if you ever split a case in the future you will see what i mean.


__________________
john walker's workshop

I will be sealing the case halves on my 3.6 in the next couple weeks as well, so this thread has perfect timing.

Here are some quotes from Henry's messages I saved:

"We have been using ThreeBond 1211 on 3.6 cylinders bases when it is not possible to o-ring the case spigot. It has worked well and would recommend this process if o-ringing is not an option."

"#8 bearing
We use the stock O-ring and Threebond 1211. We put a thin layer in both sides of the case (at the # 8 main only) and set the crank / bearing in. 1211 gives you 30 minutes to assemble but you should be ready when you drop the crank in."

"For many years we used 574 Loctite but now ( for the last 4 years) we use ThreeBond 1104 and 1211 for perimeter sealing on the case ( 1211 on # 8 main bearing) Where the case joins at the through bolts we use 574. For the the cam towers we use 1104 and where there are gaskets we use a very thin coat (very thin mind you) of 574."

"We use three products to seal our cases.
ThreeBond 1211 on the # 8 main bearing.
ThreeBond 1104 on the case perimeter cam towers.
Loctite 574 on the main webs and miss gaskets.
Curil T on the cylinder base gaskets.

On the gaskets that are prone to leaking we use a very thin coat of 574. Very thin , like a glaze."


Kirk

Thats funny, I guess we were both posting the same quotes at the same time.

Kirk

Per ChrisBennet

Thru-Bolt O-Rings

The O-rings that come in the gasket kit are blue - and suck. Get the green ones from Henry or EBS and lube them up with some Dow Corning 111. The 964 gasket kits come with the blue O-rings also but they seem to work OK in that application.

I use white teflon sealant paste with the green O rings from Henry for the through bolts. That is something I have l learned from the type 4 threads. Jake Raby (he's a big type 4 guru), also uses this stuff on the green oil return tubes O rings instead of just oil.

I tried using the Curil T on the pulley seal as described in Wayne's book. After about 20 minutes the pulley seal pushed it self out about 1/8 of an inch. I now install these dry.

I like using Loctite 574 between the cam carrier and the heads too.

Michel

I have always used loctite 574 on case halves and cam towers with success. But on my 3.4 I am following Henry's advice and using threebond 1104 on the case halves and cam towers. Oil on the viton through bolt orings and threebond 1211 on the #8 (which I normally install dry). Oil on the viton oil return tube o-rings and curil-t on the main seal and cylinder base gaskets (which I normally install dry).

I figure it is best to experiment on my own motor to see what I think of these sealants. I don't mind pulling it out again in the winter if it turns out my previous methods were better. Would hate to have to do that with a customer though!!

Cheers

The funny thing is my shop manual for my 993 indicates that case sealant (i.e. locktite) should be applied to the bearing saddles ; so for the 993 that is what Porsche recommended.

I used Locktite on the saddles and Threebond on the perimeter (again on the case half not on the stand). I used a light coating of Curil-T on #8 and all the O rings have 111. No leaks but I do not have that many miles (yet).

Cheers,

Mike

Just about any of the approaches mentioned here will work.

The key is to keep it Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean! All of the sealant in the world won't help if you don't clean off all of the previous debris. This is far more important than which lotion or potion to use on the sealing of the case...

-Wayne

The throughbolt O-rings in my gasket set are indeed the blue ones, and I would prefer to use the green viton ones.

Does pelican have these, and if not what is the part number from EBS?
It looks like it might be: POR024395

??

Kirk