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-   -   90 C2 - 964 rebuild (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/314761-90-c2-964-rebuild.html)

CBRacerX 12-21-2006 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JWPATE

BTW, I noticed on your rebuild site that you seem to be using a
ATV or motorcycle lift to get the engine in and out. Did that work
as well as it looks to do? Looks like you even used it to lift the engine
for the stand yoke.

After doing many engine R&R's with a floor jack and plywood plate, I stepped up to a hydralic table a while back. I must say it is an _excellent_ solution for the problem at hand. Mine came from Harbor Freight, they still sell it
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41145 - but not as cheaply as when I got mine ($100).

JWPATE 12-21-2006 06:28 PM

Did you need to modify it in any way? That handle looks like it could
require that the rear bumper come off. Any troubles that way?

CBRacerX 12-21-2006 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JWPATE
Did you need to modify it in any way? That handle looks like it could
require that the rear bumper come off. Any troubles that way?

Nope, it has quite a decent length, and is _very_ stable (check the weight). You can move the engine and transmission forward as needed to install with the bumper on the car. Really makes it a one man operation. I do use a floor jack on the front of the transmission to help with the angle getting everything installed, but with two people that would not be required.

JasonAndreas 12-22-2006 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JWPATE
Did you need to modify it in any way? That handle looks like it could require that the rear bumper come off. Any troubles that way?
Sears is still selling them for $89.99USD but I've seen them on sale for as low as $70USD. The engine and gearbox are balanced nearly perfectly so one person can drag both around the garage (or down the street) without any issues and there are no problems sliding the whole assembly under the bumper. If you want to remove the handle it is held in place with a cotter pin.


http://members.rennlist.com/jandreas...ngine-Side.jpg

http://members.rennlist.com/jandreas...ngine-Rear.jpg

http://members.rennlist.com/jandreas...gine-Front.jpg

JWPATE 12-22-2006 06:40 AM

Thanks guys, that looks like the best solution by far. Hope it doesn't also require a floor lift for the car - does it? Otherwise I now just need to figure where I can store the thing when not in use. I do already have
a floor jack with potential to temporarily lift the rear of the car high enough to get is all under.........I think.

I just took a look at Sears.com and note that they have now
added an aluminum model ATV jack, which is only 44 pounds, and
that light weight would be important for me. I will have to squirrel it away somewhere when not in use.

Not planning to stick my nose outside the bunker for the next
few days, but after the rush I will have a look at these things.

JWPATE 12-22-2006 10:58 AM

These exhaust studs have been known to break in service. I
have been lucky and cannot remember a broken stud, but surely
wouldn’t like lying on my back to drill out the remains. So this
seems like cheap insurance – just change them all while they are
easy to deal with. Chris Sokoloski is developing a 964 drill guide
for use in the event when one should break. His tool will use, I
believe, three pins to locate the tool on that sealing ring
depression.
Then a nut will hold it in place on whichever stud remains,
providing a safe way to drill out the broken off remains.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1166816651.jpg
Don’t bother looking for that nice, Snap-On stud remover…….it will
not help you here. Double-nuts would probably get them out,
and this little ‘el-cheapo from Taiwan took them all out without a
problem. Did not require heat. This style tool ruins the threads,
of course, but the old studs are headed for the trash bin anyway.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1166816758.jpg
First observe that the new studs are slightly unequal in the
threaded sections, and don’t get them backwards. Porsche
designates stud length in terms of that length extending above
the surface, in this case 8 x 22. The 22 length will be both the
longer threaded section and the short unthreaded section.
Chase out the threads, double-nut the new studs, and set them
in with Loctite 271.

Somewhere along in this process you will start to wonder about
replacing them with stainless studs, and using copper or brass
nuts as an "upgrade" in hope of longer life. Ask yourself why
Porsche didn’t think of that! Then order a set of OEM hardware.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1166817088.jpg

beepbeep 12-23-2006 01:11 AM

Great rebuild thread! I'm impressed with your clenliness! It's much nicer and awarding to work with clean parts.

About pistons: certain pistons have offset wrist-pins which means that pistons should be mounted in certain direction according to crank rotation. Make sure your pistons really are symetrical before you bolt that thing together, or vibrations might occur.

JWPATE 12-23-2006 06:55 AM

Thanks for the suggestion Goran. Yes, I wondered about that but could
not see any difference at all. It looked as though it made no difference
which way the pistons went in. So I placed the stamped identification/
weight group markings at the top....which seems tne natural way.

kirkf 12-23-2006 08:31 AM

Not sure if I was reading this correctly, but weren't your pistons marked with an 'E' to mean that side goes towards the intake?

Kirk

beepbeep 12-23-2006 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JWPATE
Thanks for the suggestion Goran. Yes, I wondered about that but could
not see any difference at all. It looked as though it made no difference
which way the pistons went in. So I placed the stamped identification/
weight group markings at the top....which seems tne natural way.

When I say "asymetrical wristpins" I mean that holes that wristpins are installed into are a tiny bit nearer the cylinder walls on one side than the other, in order to help geometry when crank starts winding around. Your eye might not see it, but kae out one of cylinders and measure the distance between wrist-pin hole and the curved edge of piston skirt.

I don't know if this is the case with 964 N/A pistons, but I clearly remember a friend of mine mumbling about "having pistons assembled backwards on one halv of engine" in one case where 993TT pistons were used.


With other words, if pistons really are asymetric, halv of pistons should be installed "with letters downwards"...

JWPATE 12-23-2006 01:25 PM

Thanks Kirk, and thank you Goran, for sticking with this,

Yes the pistons are cast with an E, and that is where the weight markings also are located. So E means intake. Thanks, they are in correctly and I feel much better knowing it. That part about E meaning intake was probably dropped from the manuals on the assumption that everyone knows that!

I just went back and found the reference under piston
identification - "Letter in the middle (towards inlet side)". It was
right there in front of me, and I missed it. Thanks again, that
issue is closed.

JWPATE 12-23-2006 01:48 PM

One chore I can move back to, while waiting for the last head to
return, is the matter of rubber fuel hoses. I had tagged this hose
in the engine bay for replacement due to old age (16 years), back
when I was replacing the oil lines.
All the fuel lines on the 964 seem to be a combination of steel
tubing and rubber flex hose at the ends, as in this example.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1166912932.jpg
This particular one is easily removed and taken over to the
bench. I cannot see the sense of replacing the entire part, when
only the rubber section is too old. Expecting to find conventional
barbs under the clamp and rubber, I start by carefully cutting
most of the way across the clamp. OK to go through into the
hose……..but use extreme care near the end and don’t attempt to
cut the full length.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1166913039.jpg
Rather, use wire cutters or such to start the edges back and gain
a real grip with these vice-grip tools. Back-and-forth to work
harden the uncut portion and soon they will snap open with no
damage to the steel section of the line. Members with a more
elegant method of doing this – please feel welcome to make
suggestions.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1166913156.jpg
With the clamps off we find that indeed there is a nice barb style
end for the new hose.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1166913232.jpg
The hose ID on this particular run is 10mm and so I am using
here a section of the new Silicone hoses. Whatever you use be
sure it is rated for fuel. This is a high temperature fuel hose and
rated for 30 bars pressure. As it is only a fuel return to the tank
that is overkill, but I already had the hose section on hand.
Purist will wonder if the original style clamp could be used. NO. It
is very close to a number six air conditioning ferrule but there is
no way to get one back on after cutting it from the fitting. You
will have to buy the entire line if the original look is important
enough.

For me, I used a stainless worm clamp, BUT be sure to get clamps
with smooth clamping surfaces. Those with the open worm
screw grooves will ruin silicone hose like this in short order.

Some of the other flex ends must be done in place, for the metal
sections run all the way under the car to the fuel tank end.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1166913339.jpg
The fuel rails were approached in a similar way. Those hose
sections look OK really, but they too have been declared too old
for further service.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1166913429.jpg
In this case though there was a little surprise for me. The clamps
were cut off as before, but the hose was not what I expected.
Perhaps this photo will illustrate, that the injection rubber flex
sections are really a plastic hose covered in a rubber outer skin.
They are COHLINE 370 hose in 9mm ID.

I had measured the metal pipe sections and ordered 8mm
injection hose from our host. However, as the photo illustrates,
the metal section is larger inside the rubber hose fitting. SO, the
hose I have (actually it arrived in 7.5 mm ID) will not do.

Initial searches have been fruitless, either for the COHLINE 370
or for a 9 mm ID fuel injection hose. Will keep you informed………
and would welcome any information/suggestions on the matter.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1166913508.jpg
One thing was certainly strange here – when I attacked the
clamp ferrule I noticed that it was loose and actually not even
touching the hose? This hose section was providing its own seal,
without any clamp whatsoever. Now I also observe that the
hose size is 8mm and it has been forced to expand to the 9mm
fitting.
I go over to all the other “clamps” on this fuel rail plumbing, and
they are ALL loose enough to spin around with my finger? Also,
look at those metal sections. There are not one, but several
barbs in place, and really no flat section to take a clamp.
What is going on here? I shall have to look into this, for we seem
to have stumbled on to something new.

JWPATE 12-26-2006 11:51 AM

Well, since the ferrule style clamps are not actually clamping
anything, it will be easier to cut around the circumference near
the ends, and simply slip back the body of the clamp to allow the
hose to be slit through. Use a sharp x-acto blade and cut
through the reinforcing cord of the hose. It will then easily come
off.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167165271.jpg
So it seems that what we have discovered in this exercise is a
development in fuel hoses that until now had escaped my notice.
This is high-pressure fuel hose, or simply fuel injection hose. I
have not yet found the German spec code for the stuff, but here
in USA the rough equivalent is SAE 30R9. All the major suppliers,
Gates – ACDelco – Goodyear, and others will have a product to
this spec. 30R9 hose will have an inner, laminated tube, like that
noted in the Cohline 370 hose, and is a Fluoroelastomer
providing a low permeation shield for the remainder of the hose
section (which will be of traditional components). The inner tube
is impervious to anything likely to ever be in your fuel system and
thus protects the outer hose from swelling, cracking and such.
30R9 hose will have an operating pressure range up to 180 psi
and a burst pressure rating of 900 psi. The temperature spec is
up to 275 F for continuous operation and intermittent temps up
to 302 F.
The photo is a section of the Goodyear product. You will find that
5/16 hose will be an acceptable replacement for 8 mm German
hose, and 3/8 hose will replace the 10 mm originals. About four
feet of each will be more than enough for the entire system, and
both sizes are needed.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167165574.jpg
Another somewhat surprising change has apparently come along
regarding the fittings and clamps. Those loose clamps I noticed
earlier were not accidental or poor quality control. End fittings
with that Christmas-tree look (several barbs and no flats for a
clamp) are known as no-clamp fittings or push-on fittings. One
does not need to clamp them and to do so would be a mistake as
you risk damaging the inner tube section. So why were those
ferrules put on there? Static display clamps don’t make much
sense to me so I have left them off entirely.

Someone with more experience/knowledge of the new hose/no-
clamp fittings please feel welcome to join the discussion.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167165816.jpg
Oh, the tag hanging down is just a reminder that all the hose end
fittings are still loose, and need tigntening after final
adjustments... Shouldn't need crutches for such obvious things,
but better safe than sorry.

renaissanceman 12-27-2006 02:37 AM

Do you have a past work history in a semiconductor clean room or making bio medical products? Everything looks so so well thought out and prepped, I just wanted to say kudos and you are my benchmark the way to do it right the first time.

JWPATE 12-27-2006 02:52 PM

What a nice comment renaissanceman! Happy New Year to you!

JWPATE 12-28-2006 02:51 PM

Good news has arrived regarding the head stud extraction
tooling. Christian has the prototype completed and several of
the tools have now been run off. The testing phase is underway,
in which one of the good studs in my head will be drilled out as
confirmation of the tool’s precision.
Here in Nevada, it is now time to launch my attack on the
Tiptronic transmission. Plan of action is to replace each oil seal
where a rotating shaft leaves the case. I have had no leaks to
date but again, the seals will be retired with full honors after
having served for 16 long years without a failure.
Some special tools are to be needed. The homemade affair in the
foreground has already been tested as an acceptable substitute
for Porsche tool 9325, which is essential to hold the torque
converter in place while separating the transmission from the
engine. The flat section bolts on the flange where the starter
motor previously resided, and that forked affair is tightened up
behind the torque converter edge to secure it. The extended
shank Snap-On torx drive socket has been modified by grinding
away the flats sufficiently to substitute as Porsche 9330, and will
be needed when we get to the port side driveshaft flange. The
length of steel pipe nipple has already proven useful in pressing
in VW Vanagon rear wheel bearings, and looks to be appropriate
also for the Porsche 9328 substitution, needed at the intake
shaft oil seal.
In total, there will be five seals to replace along with a couple of
o-rings.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167348804.jpg
The torque converter simply slips off the input shaft, carefully,
revealing the oil seal. Here it has been popped out with that
little VW 681 tool.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167348876.jpg
The new shaft seal gets pressed all the way into its recess here.
The pipe nipple worked fine, and will gain another sticker –
Tiptronic input shaft seal.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167348946.jpg

Next will be the drive flange seals, here starting on the port side,
or long-shaft side. The oil seal is pressed into that bearing cap,
and here the torx T45 tool is going in through the drive flange
holes to loosen the fasteners. I hear that some guys don’t like
the torx fittings, but so far, I think they are a good design.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167349071.jpg
The shaft over on the bench now and, after that snap-ring is
removed the bearing and cap can be taken off. Use press if
needed. Mine just pulled apart.
Notice what looks to be Loctite sealant inside the o-ring
depression. The manual calls for nothing on that o-ring. I
decided though to again follow their example rather than their
advice. I used Three Bond 1211 as was done on the engine #8
bearing.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167349177.jpg
This seal needs to be set flush with the surface, so a setup like
this is best to get it in square and flush. Notice that the manual
called for packing these drive flange seals with grease. The old
one had what looked like general lithium grease. This is Mobil 1
synthetic, just because it was handy.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167349264.jpg
The starboard or short-shaft side is different, and easier. Just
remove that center bolt, using whatever jury-rig you have handy
to lock the shaft from turning. The shaft will then pull out and the
seal can be renewed as on the port side.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167349667.jpg
All that remains now are the seals at either end of the differential
drive shaft. Replacing them will require that the nose sections of
the transmission come off, so that will wait for tomorrow.

JWPATE 12-29-2006 02:15 PM

So today I got around to those oil seals at either end of the drive
shaft, which runs from the nose case back to the differential
gearing, inside a plastic dust shield.
Take out a single hex bolt at the nose and then the ring of torx
bolts and the front case can be persuaded off. Seen below it are
a beautiful set of gears. The right most in the photo is the
transmission output gear and it will slip off the shaft, along with
the bearing, after the sealing o-ring at the tip has been
removed. Ditto the idle gear in the middle. With those two gears
out, another two torx bolts will be revealed. Remove them and
the intermediate case section can also be pulled off.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167433455.jpg
On the bench after cleanup the seal can be seen inside a bearing
cap. Remove the snap-ring and work out the bearing cap.
Expect resistance, it has a 16 year old o-ring in place. That nose
section takes the plastic dust tube from an earlier photo. Grab it
now with some good channel locks and work the thing out.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167433535.jpg
New o-ring in place wet with ATF. New oil seal set in 2 mm below
the surface (plus or minus ½ MM). Force it back into the case and
replace snap-ring.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167433618.jpg
Looking at the drive shaft with the plastic shield removed/cleaned
we can now see the rear oil seal, again in a bearing cap, this time
fastened by three small torx bolts.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167433696.jpg
This cap has two ears thoughtfully included in the casting, and providing a handy way to pull it out. Grab with vice grips and work it out. This one didn’t put up much of a fight. Same depth is specified on the oil seal and, of course, a new o-ring. On both these oil seals, the instructions call for packing grease in the area between the dust lip and the sealing lip. It was there on the old ones too.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167433753.jpg
It all goes back together quickly. Torque all fasteners to spec
and work deliberately so as not to omit any of the sealing o-rings.
Will it do another 16 years without leaks? Dunno. At least there
is hope, and there are new seals and o-rings.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167433849.jpg

axl911 01-02-2007 07:09 AM

JWPATE,

How do you fit the 30R9 fuel hoses onto the metal lines? Do you just push them on?

Apparently, these types are also used on the 993 between the fuel rails. As you can see from my attached picture.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167754108.jpg

---
anthony

JWPATE 01-02-2007 07:52 AM

Anthony,
What I found on the 964, were two slightly different style
fittings. one was the fir tree style with no flats where one could
clamp the hose. In this case, yes you just push the hose on, but
brother, it will take a serious push. You will need one part in a
vice (protected by rubber against damage to the pipe) and WD
40 will help. I wouldn't recommend oil as it will remain too long.

The other style has only a single barb with a flat section to fit a
clamp. Pinch clamps or small, smooth surface worm clamps will do.
Mind that the clamp will not be too wide for the flat section.

You go back through the photos I posted and see if this makes
sense. Both styles are there in different photos.

JWPATE 01-03-2007 06:10 PM

Another thing I wanted to do while the engine was out – replace
the CV joint rubber boots. None yet cracked but again, rubber
getting old so better to do it now while waiting to get on with the
engine.

The first step requires removal of the M22 x 1.5 lock nut at the
shaft end. You will need heavy equipment for this one (3/4 inch
drive stuff) because the nut went on at 340 ft.lb. I found that
over 400 were needed to get it off.

Then go in with a brass drift and tap the shaft in on its splines.
The transmission is out so nothing else to do but carefully work
the drive shaft out complete.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167872190.jpg
At the vice, after taking off the boot metal straps, one is faced
with how to get the boots off the shaft and the new ones on.
The manual offers no suggestions, so we are on our own here.
The outer CV joint on the later cars is integral, so the plan is to
take off the inboard joint and change both boots via this end.

Here a couple of pry bars are used together to spread the metal
caps. In my vast experience (two shafts) the outer cap always
gives up and comes away first.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167872367.jpg
Next, a dull, rounded cold chisel is used to persuade the inboard
cap off the CV joint. There is a circlip at the shaft end which is
easily removed, but do not imagine that the CV joint is then going
to simply slip off the shaft. I have seen recommendations on
another site to use a three-jaw puller at this point, and I
suppose some fellows have succeeded that way. Cannot accept
that approach though because it places the full load on the ball
cages, and that cannot be good practice. Also, how would the
joint then be replaced on the shaft…….with a hammer? No, this
will require a hydraulic press, and you haven’t access to one then
this job is not for you.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167878679.jpg
Set the shaft up such that full support will be taken on the small
inside hub, and press the shaft out from above. It took a fair
pressure to remove it. Keep parts orientated as they come
apart. All is murky in black moly grease, but you want to know
how to get it back as it was.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167878800.jpg
Now turn the attention to the shaft, and to the job we started
with in the first instance. Clean the shaft…….check the condition
of the outer CV joint. If all is well there, just replenish the grease
which will have been lost with the old boot coming off. But don’t
mix any new grease you have, for it may not be compatible. Just
use some which was in the cup/boot of the outer joint.

Put some tape over the shaft splines, then replace both the
rubber boots now, so as not to forget. Also put the inside metal
cap for the inner end joint on the shaft.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167878941.jpg
Do the final cleaning with soap and water, then blow dry. Moly
grease is not compatible with solvents and thinners, and I
understand that even their residue can present lubrication
issues. So, be safe and clean well with soapy water.
Now is the time to carefully examine the parts and decide
whether to place them back in for further service. Anything but
perfect on the balls is unsatisfactory. Any pitting or galling on the
ball grooves would also call for replacement.
Notice the two painted dots on the inner hub. Why?
Anyone know what those dots mean? Ball size group?
The other side of the inner hub has a flat chamfer surface which
must contact the shoulder on the drive shaft. The dots then must
face the shaft end, but I doubt that is why they are there.

Notice also that the inner faces of the end caps have clear
evidence of a sealant having been used. No gaskets – but there
certainly was a sealant.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167879103.jpg
Correctly reassembled, this is what you should see. Note that
both the inner and outer ball hubs have different spaces
between the ball grooves. You want the small space in the inner
hub to line up with a wide space in the outer hub, as seen here.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167879191.jpg
Now back to the press bed for the CV joint replacement. Check
again that the boots are both on the shaft along with the inner
metal cap. Do this with the joint still clean and dry, but lubricate
the splines with anti-seize. It will take somewhat less pressure
to seat the inner hub back fully to its stop, than was needed to
remove it.

Back to the vice and replace the circlip, then pack the joint with
moly grease.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167879317.jpg
Ready to put the end caps back on. Clean the mating surfaces
and lightly dress the end caps with a sealant. I used Loctite 574
because it seems a logical choice to me. Line the holes up and
use channel locks to press the caps back on, tightly in place.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167879384.jpg


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