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Alter Ego Racing
 
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You list rebuilt 2.2 are you thinking of taking it apart???

For John C: I'm not familiar with PCA's GCR in respect to engine mods. Perhaps a thread on that should start the subject of what to do with the 2.2E.......
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Old 02-22-2007, 05:50 PM
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My car has the stock heads and I would like pretty much the same thing John C is after.
More at the top without sacrificing too much originality and not stressing the engine.

But this is John C's thread , and a damn good one so I will start a new one tomorrow.

John F
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Old 02-22-2007, 06:30 PM
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How is the engine rebuild going John ?
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Old 02-25-2007, 05:33 PM
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I feel that the wear on those sprockets is a result of too much chain tension. I'd go with factory tensioners on reassembly.

Although it's difficult to judge from a photo, I wonder whether your camshafts really need to be changed. I just finished with a head stud/head rebuild job on a 3.2 with just 13,000 miles, which also showed pitting on one or two lobes. I think that it's just something about the chill cast iron that can't be avoided. I would be more concerned if I saw scoring on the cam lobes.
Old 02-26-2007, 08:57 AM
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Thanks for checking in!

I will definitely replace all the sprockets. Has anyone done the replacement of the sprockets on the intermediate shaft? I can't seem to find a procedure either in the factory workshop manual, Wayne's book or here on Pelican, not to mention the Early S Registry, where the procedure for everything is "pour a Martini and have your mechanic do it." Just kidding.

Tensioners will be late 930 type with safety collars so they can hide behind the original 901/05 chain box covers.

These camshafts will most likely be entombed in cosmoline and placed in a hermetically sealed vault to be opened on April 1, 2066 (the hundredth anniversary of #304065 rolling off the line). In their place will be some sort of an improved Solex grind with a wider lobe separation and higher lift.

I am probably going to buy a large ultrasonic cleaner to wash everything in. It seems to be the ideal way to remove four decades of accumulated crud while using only soap and water. I am no fan of VOC solvents nor do I have the disposal capability that a pro shop would, hence I'm prepared to do more capex up front.

Does anyone happen to know the dimensions of a six-cylinder engine case without the head studs installed? I would like to immerse both halves in the cleaner and don't want to buy one that's too big, as the price increases significantly with size.
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Old 02-26-2007, 09:29 AM
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I've only changed the intermediate shaft sprockets on a 2.4 engine. There were snap rings holding them in place. I had to heat the sprockets to get them on and off. I used a gear puller, but it would be nicer to use a press. They weren't too hard to take off, once they were hot.

I want to hear about your giant ultrasound cleaner. I wonder how effective they are at removing combustion deposits? Ollie's recently did a set of heads for me, and they got them incredibly clean, apparently without media blasting. The machined surfaces look factory.
Old 02-26-2007, 10:16 AM
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John,

Just a note about the safety collars. I went the same route you are planning, but was unable to install the collars. With all the new hardware, ie- chains, rails, sprockets, etc., there wasn't enough room to install the collars and provide the necessary clearance. I ended-up going without, thinking sometime down the road when things break-in and loosen-up in there, I may be able to install them.
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Old 02-26-2007, 04:18 PM
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Collars were installed in mine
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Old 02-26-2007, 04:21 PM
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John, I think if you remove all the head studs and the end studs (for the trans mount and rear engine "console"), which are all 10x1.50 thread, the case is about 22"L x 16"W x 16"H, or approx. 22x8x16 for one half. Keep in mind there are a few inside studs that you may need to remove--the two studs that have acorn nuts in the oil cooler area (main #1) and the long studs (M8x1.25) on the perimeter and the intermediate shaft bearing support.

If you haven't already, buy this stud remover tool and the inserts you need (10x1.50, 8x1.25, 6x1.00, etc.):
Snap-Off Tools website link

The solid tensioners should really only be set to keep it tight enough to maintain timing, and no more. They can work very well though.

930s w/ collars, another good way to go.
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Old 02-26-2007, 04:35 PM
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The points on the chain sprockets are as installed. All early chain sprockets had pointed teeth until the new design was installed in 1969.
Worn sprockets show as an elliptical troth where the chain pin runs.

Although tight chains do offer some challenges, mechanical tensioners that are properly adjusted offer unparalleled reliability and no, I repeat no performance loss.

Just like boat tailing offers no performance enhancements mechanical tensioners offer no performance loss.

Of course proper installation, like most mechanical parts, is the key.
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Old 02-26-2007, 09:18 PM
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Interesting "point" about the sprockets. I do see some assymetric wear, but I suppose that putting a new chain on old sprockets, or even ordinary wear, could have caused that. Henry, if the mechanical tensioners are so good, then why didn't Porsche use them, and save a few million dollars?
Old 02-27-2007, 03:51 AM
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just like all things, mechanical tensioners have their limitations. but, in a constant-temperature (w/ regards to expansion) environment, such as in a race engine, they are the most reliable. What could be more reliable than an immobile mechanical lock?

What happens in a race engine if you lose oil pressure w/ hydraulic tensioners, or 901s fail? Bad things, and quickly.

Street engines see widely varying temperature, short trips, etc. and in order to get more life out of the chains and sprockets under these conditions, a spring/hydraulic/variable tensioner probably makes more sense.

Obviously collars and such on stock tensioners (901/930) can mimic solid tensioners and prevent against full failure, but, why spend the money on those when you can get a cheap block of billet and do the same thing?

Porsche used variable rate tensioners as a compromise...just like a Porsche street car is a compromise on a race track.

PS. Tom F2? Did you stop by my house a while back, when we had a discussion about your 3.0CSi and cool 911 engine configurations, among other things? or am I confusing your user name with another? Nice to see you on the boards, if so. Cheers
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Old 02-27-2007, 04:03 AM
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Wow, Henry, you're right. The sprocket profile matches the factory workshop manual. Seems like I learn something new every time you post, thanks for the contributions here. I still think there may be some wear but I'll inspect them using the "new chain test" before plunking down $250 or so for new sprockets.
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Old 02-27-2007, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by YTNUKLR
just like all things, mechanical tensioners have their limitations. but, in a constant-temperature (w/ regards to expansion) environment, such as in a race engine, they are the most reliable. What could be more reliable than an immobile mechanical lock?

What happens in a race engine if you lose oil pressure w/ hydraulic tensioners, or 901s fail? Bad things, and quickly.

Street engines see widely varying temperature, short trips, etc. and in order to get more life out of the chains and sprockets under these conditions, a spring/hydraulic/variable tensioner probably makes more sense.

Obviously collars and such on stock tensioners (901/930) can mimic solid tensioners and prevent against full failure, but, why spend the money on those when you can get a cheap block of billet and do the same thing?

Porsche used variable rate tensioners as a compromise...just like a Porsche street car is a compromise on a race track.

PS. Tom F2? Did you stop by my house a while back, when we had a discussion about your 3.0CSi and cool 911 engine configurations, among other things? or am I confusing your user name with another? Nice to see you on the boards, if so. Cheers
Not me, Scott, though I would certainly like to have a 3.0CSi. Also, I am in the Boston area, so it would not be easy to drop by your house!

Please don't take my question about mechanical tensioners as flip. I think that German machines are prone to having "too many parts," so for all I know, the mechanical adjusters might be made to work well enough. Many years ago, I worked as a machine adjuster in an envelope factory (back when New England had a real paper industry!), and the crew had a standing joke about how many parts we could leave out of the German machines, and still have them work.
Old 02-27-2007, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Does anyone happen to know the dimensions of a six-cylinder engine case without the head studs installed? I would like to immerse both halves in the cleaner and don't want to buy one that's too big, as the price increases significantly with size.
Bring the case halves, cam carriers, etc. to a Auto transmission repair shop. They have industrial sized "dishwashers" they use to clean the transmission parts..

I have a local guy that has done my parts gratis.
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Old 02-27-2007, 09:50 AM
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Tim,

That is my plan, have the local machine shop do it.

The capital expenditure for an ultrasonic cleaner that can accomodate the engine case is more than the budget for the rebuild! So for the moment, it will be put right behind the two-post lift on the list of shop equipment for Cramer's future garage. . . I'm not ruling out a smaller one, however, for everything but the case, towers and crank.

If you use Anchor Atlantic for heads they run them through an ultrasonic to clean them, very nice looking results. Here is their web page with some before and after photos.

http://www.anchoratlantic.com/anchor_atlantic_enterprises.htm

I spoke to a nice man at a local machine shop today, he has a hot-tank that can do aluminum without melting it and bead-blasting capability. Evidently the man has done some Porsche work before so I will only "interview" him for an hour or so before leaving my parts. . .
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Old 02-27-2007, 10:49 AM
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More Photos

Here are some photos of one of the cylinders. You can see the scuffing up near the top. Also you can see the remaining hatch from when the cylinders were honed 25 years ago.

I have to get out the bore gage and measure the cylinder diameter in the scuffing to find out whether this can be saved. If it's too deep, it will preclude the cylinder from being bored to 81.



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Old 03-20-2007, 05:23 PM
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Crank measurements
Pulley 29.98
VIII Main 30.98
VII 56.97
VI 56.97
V 56.97
IV 56.97
III 56.97
II 56.97
I 56.97

Rods
VI 56.48
V 56.48
IV 56.47
III 56.47
II 56.47
I 56.47

This is, obviously, a crank that has been ground .50mm under on the rod journals! I knew that because the part number for the rod bearing set was an .50 undersize set.

All the ovality measurements at 90 degrees to the initial measurement were the same. The measurement really should be done with a micrometer with a greater resolution than my Fowler .01mm version, three digits would be nice. But the crank is usable by these measurements, now it has to be checked for runout and cracks.
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Old 03-25-2007, 03:50 PM
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Well, a nearly six gram difference between the lightest and the heaviest may require some matching. Although substitution of a 600g rod from a set would probably bring them in spec, and would not require the time and expense of grinding the other five to match.

That being said, these rods are going to:

1) Have small-end bearings pressed out;

2) Be checked for twist; you can't get the rod flat against a surface plate with the small-end bushing in place;

3) Have small-end bearings inserted and drilled;

4) Be honed to size at the small end; and

5) Have big end resized as necessary.

All of these operations will no doubt change the weight, so I'll see where they come out. I assume that removing material for balancing purposes can be done after all of those operations.
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Old 04-13-2007, 10:43 AM
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John,

Not to necessarily resurrect a thread, but what ever happened with your '66 motor?
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Old 10-31-2007, 02:25 PM
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