Ok, I received my Porsche COP Beru coil. The biggest issue I see is that the coil part and mounting holes are not flush with the valve cover. The spark plugs are not perpendicular with the surface of the valve cover so some sort of adapter would have to be made to properly secure the coils to the valve cover. Also the PORSCHE logo on the uppers adds to the problem. I can now see that a full billet valve cover with proper mounting points would be optimum. I have not tried them on the lower plugs of my Twin plug engine yet.

As for the Denso coils, I wonder if the spark energy is sufficient to fire off a boosted engine properly? The coil is rather small on those.

Does anybody know the Kawa Part number for these Cop's?
And what are they normally going for new?


Are they sensitive to plug fouling when used in an engine with rich mixture ( like MFI)

I'm quoteing myself.... Highlighting the important stuff in red, cause I haven't seen many EFI systems capable of powering a coil with more than 12 volt....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1259055091.jpg

Thanks for the manual pages. The unknown factor is the Item 'C' (Peak Voltage Adapter) mentioned in the procedure. This adapter reduces the voltage output so it can be measured on a standard analog VOM. It's probably in the area of 300-400:1 reduction to get 85 readout on the VOM.

Are you sure about that? My guess is it is some sort of "peak capture" circuit to grab and hold the peak voltage so the meter can read it. Most multimeters use a integrating A/D converter that takes in the range of 1/2 second to get a reading,

No, not really sure. I just noticed that the illustration showed an analog volt meter which are pretty basic. You may be right that it is some kind of peak-and-capture circuit.

Am I ever glad I started this thread! I've been soaking all this up. You guys are amazing. But, I'm still trying to figure out from the replies if anybody has actually got a running system from using the Kawasaki coil packs. If you do can you please post a detail of the components and wiring? If the data is clear enough I'd be happy to generate a wiring schematic.

..................maybe I need to start an FI thread now.

Any updates?
 

I am still tossing up which way to go with my COPs on a 964 engine. I'd love to see a few more pics of some setups on any engine.
My current options are to go with the Audi coils (questionable reliability) or Toyota coils ($$). I also don't have enough technical info on the Toyota coils to commit just yet even though I have already scored one set of six for free.
Whichever coils I use, they will be driven by Megasquirt ECU so I want to stick with something that will work with a 5V or 12V signal.

So, any updates on COP applications?

Cop
 

Mark,
Can you show/explain how you are driving these Kawa coils? Unless I am interpreting this incorrectly, the manual shows that they are driven by fairly high voltage (88VDC+). Can you share with us how you provide the primary voltage or is there another way......or did you just provide 12VDC and they worked?
Pix?

Regards,

Al

PS: I've got a box of these too!

+1 on the operating voltage for the ZX600 coils.

This issue has been raised earlier in this thread (and others) but no-one has ever described how they need to be hooked up so I crossed them off my list.

Anyone with a wiring diagram to share will go on my Xmas card list for next year. :)

Al, have you tried to get a 12v signal to the COP with a plug installed to see if it fires? I might make a test stand to get all the components working prior to changing out my system.

signing-up.

James,
I have not done that yet, but the thought has crossed my mind, as well. I need to finish my current project, but that one is working itself up in the que. Let me know what you find out..and/or if you need help, let me know.

Al

I'm going to try one, there cheap and if it works, i'll go for it also

James,
I have extra(s). I'd donate 1 or two to the test, if that helps.
Al

Gotta keep this thread alive. C'mon guys, let's see your COPs. Pics, details, wiring, mounting, ...

I have just tested one of the Toyota coils I might use.
These coils have four wires. Two are a little larger so I assumed they were the 12V+ and 12V- to power the coil.
By default, the other two wires must be the signal from the ECU. I had a guess as to which was +ve and which was -ve. Got it wrong but fortunately it didn't do any harm to the coil. It just didn't fire when the signal polarity was the wrong way around.
My other gamble was whether the signal was 5V or 12V (or 88V!).
As it happens, the coil seems to work fine with 12v signal.

To test, I hooked up the two coil power wires direct to a battery and also earthed the coil's -ve signal wire. I connected a metal file to the battery +ve and then lightly stroked the coil's +ve signal wire along the file.
This produced a nice fat continuous spark.

No rocket science here, but now I know that my Toyota coil seems to work OK with 12V signal and hooking it up with reversed polarity doesn't fry its innards. :eek:
Al, James, I hope this gives you some ideas.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262349212.jpg

Bill,
That is great and the results look positive. Thanks for that and please keep us updated on your testing. I am focused on finishing my 71E project, but after that I will be turning towards this.

al

:)

I would like to try the Kawasaki Denso coils as the fitment is so good.

Has anyone done further testing done on these?

:)

Kawa
 

The KAWA coils that I have purchased have a Mitsubishi logo (3-diamonds) on them.

The Kawasaki coils that I picked up have the Mitsubishi logo (3-diamonds) on them also with a part# 61560 / 7125
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262459008.jpg

Ok, I found this item today while searching for ignition coil info. It is a coil targeted for ford applications but is built like the Kawasaki coil. Should be easy to get info for its operating requirements since it replaces the oem COP on many ford and Mazda applications. Its completely redesigned and cost is from $60 each. I like this setup because you can just use the standard hold down tabs used for twin plug lowers. No need to fabricate a bracket or modify your valve covers.

Main webpage: WeaponX Performance : High Performance Automotive Products
Application cross reference: http://www.weaponxperformance.com/technicalPDF/WeaponX%20Ignition%20Coil%20Interchange.pdf




http://www.weaponxperformance.com/IgnitionCoilsS2.jpg

anybody know which terminal is + and which is - on the kawi coils.

This is the harness that came with some of the coils I bought. The reds all tie together and I would quess it to be the positive (+) side

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263137177.jpg

:)

What combination of coils/drivers/2pin/4/pin works?

I thought the 2 pin coils need drivers and the 4 pin coils do not.

I like the Kawasaki (2 pin) & Toyota (4 pin) coils because of their fitment.

I will try a Electromotive HPV-1 / Kawasaki coil combination as soon as I get the parts in hand.

Len

:)

I think it would be the other way around. Two pin, no drivers built in, 4 pin w/drivers-built-in. It would interesting to find out if the 2-pin system uses an amplified DC voltage. The drivers built in to the ignition controller may have a higher output voltage (i.e. 18-24VDC). It would be easy to do if there's a Kawasaki technician around who has an oscilloscope attached to the hot-side of the lead going to the COP.

:)

Thats just what I said. The 2 pin Kawasaki coils require a ign controller/driver.

Used as a waste spark system, one HPV-1 (controller/driver) unit fires three pair of coils, one pair every 120 degrees, and each of the three outputs go to a pair of coils/spark plugs.

Len

:)

Len,
Oops, sorry 'bout that. I misread.

That's how I understand HPV-1 as well.

I test fired these coils with 12V and spark appeared weak. I have no way to measure spark voltage so it was just visual. Maybe something along the line of a MSD dis controler will do the job. Any body have one to test with?

:)

I wonder what the HPV-1 puts out for voltage?

Anyone know or measured it?

Len

:)

Your solution doesn't look like it's coil on plug. Is that right?

Are their plans for that?

Also, will it work with EFI?

Dave and Len

How would you get the voltage/current out of the HPV-1? It is only set up to produce a high voltage spark current into the regular spark plug wires, at least as normally configured.

Would you just remove the three (or six for twin plug) dual coils, and plug into what is under them?

The EFI Electromotive systems ought to work fine if the HPV-1 will do the job.

Walt (who has and likes HPV-1)

Hi Walt,
Good to hear from you. I was thinking that maybe what HPV-1 users could do is disconnect the coils and use the primary winding feed circuit to drive the COP. Have you worked with wasted spark systems before? The question I have is regarding wasted spark coil pac's. Do they have 1 primary winding and 2 secondary windings, one for the active cylinder and the other for the wasted spark cylinder?

Oh, boy - you would ask. "Worked with," for me, amounts to bolting the HPV system into my car following the instructions. I did confirm (by doing it) that you can put your own two contact connector into the sensor line successfully, but that's about it beyond plain vanilla.

The closest I have gotten to looking into the innards of this potted system is to purchase a spare coil from Checker Auto or the like, since it is from some Detriot iron from a while back. The spare is in the trailer, which is in the RV lot, so I can't even conveniently check to see how many connections there are on its backside. Maybe just two? Primary and ground? Or four, but really just two because they are doubled up for better connection? Or are there more with some fancy feedback system so the control unit can see how the coil is doing? Though if the Jacobs Energypak system is a model, that could happen by the control module sensing the positive primary current or something.

My understanding, though weak on this, is that you can't just cram two wires into one distributor output hole and make two spark plugs work off of it. I suppose that is because there will be some kind of differential resistance along the way, and one plug will get more than its share of spark, etc. This would be especially true with a wast spark, would it not? Very different impedence or whatnot between the combustion spark and the one sparking into nothing much? The distributor twin plug systems all use two coils and two separate rotors or rotor paths, don't they?

So two secondaries would make sense? If something as itty bitty as those Kawasaki units can produce the needed spark, there is plenty of room in the stock HPV units for two secondaries. Their shape doesn't look like there would be two primaries as well, though.

Maybe a guy could measure voltage, at least, by removing one of the coils and poking around with a VOM with ignition on but engine stopped. The positive ought to be always on? Compared with a CDI box and its innards and heat dissipation, the HPV base housing does not look like it steps up voltage much, if at all.

Maybe Steve Weiner knows? He once advised me to make sure all the coil packs were well grounded, which I did with ring connectors under one of the fasteners for each coil, cabled together and to a chassis ground. Doesn't quite fit with the notion that opening and closing a ground to the coil is what makes them tick. Maybe he meant the whole unit.

Walt

Walt,
I found a picture of an EDIS 4 cylinder coil pack on this web site; extraEFI in the U.K.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263562351.jpg

I am assuming the same principles apply in the GM pack as it does in the Ford.

This looks like it is going to be more of a challenge than I originally thought.

Not related to Walt's questions, but I did find a diagram for the Audi/VW COP's at the same web site listed above. If it's been posted before, I apologize.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263563147.jpg

The wasted spark coil packs use only one secondary per 2 spark plugs creating a single electrical circuit sparking both plugs in series off the same secondary. The energy used and voltage loss to jump the spark gap on the non-ignition (wasted) side is small relative to the ignition side. You can run COP as a wasted spark system but now the two coil secondaries would be working as independent circuits rather than in series, just triggered by the same source at the same time which would allow you to run both plugs on the same cylinder with the same ignitor or trigger. You can't really run both plugs on one cylinder from the same wasted spark coil effectively.

Steve,
Thanks. So looking at the EDIS coil two posts prior; posts 1&4 are electrically the same point (sharing the same winding) and 2&3 are electrically the same point?

Just started to read this excellent post, and I want to be sure I am on the right page.
I run Motec, with Bosch coils packs for twin plug, and would like to go COP if it is smart and more reliable.
I have an ignition expander off the M48 ECU, which runs to a 6 channel ignitor.
The coil packs now gets 12V from the Ignition switch, and the signals from the ignitor (6). I would like to remove the coil packs, and run COP using the same outputs from the ignitor. From what I am reading, this will work?

I am leaning towards the Kawa COP setup, two wire should be the way for me to go, I think?

Is there any negative drawbacks using these coils?

I think that's the $64,000 question with all our current ignitions. It all boils down to what the ignition drivers in the Kawa ignition feed to the Kawa COP coils. Are they using for "battery" voltage.....13.8vdc or a variation of an amplified DC Voltage.

Important point to remember too is if the intended coils(COP) impedance will have on the driving circuitry. I seem to remember a thread about Perma-tune ignitions burning out because the wrong coil was used??????

No, they are not the same. The two posts create a closed loop negative to positive.