Steve,
Thanks. The diagram below illustrates what you just explained.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263573377.jpg

Steve, We ran two sets of these types of coils packs for our twin plug, and when we switched to a single plug application, we did not ground the unused tower,(we were running sequential fire) and the packs fried after 25 mins on track.. This is why we are looking at COP.. Easier to swap from single to twin plug apps..

The fireworks inside the engine compartment must have been spectacular without grounding the unused posts.

Funny thing is, there was noly one arch, from #1 to #6 post, we capped it, but the internals were still not happy, lesson learned. Still looking for COP options, looks like the 2005-06 Kamasaki COPs are the best bet, and they are two wire and that is good, since I run igniters from the motec...

Just need the plug specs from Kawasaki now...

still waiting for the ebay dirtbag to mail my Kawasaki COP to me. will try the "file" test and report back. looking better all the time!!

Just picked up a dozen 2 wire COPs, once they arrive, I will source the connectors and build the harness.

Ok, let's recap, set to convert to EDIS with megajolt jr, ignition control. Nice and straight forward. But now, COP is looking good.heres what I have now plus the coil, coil wire, and shelded wire.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263791016.jpg
I have a Kow coil coming and THINK there triggered off 12v. SO, on the megajolt oitput there is 3 signals to trigger the coil (in 6cyl config.) that should trigger the COP just the same way the 6-coil pac is triggered. Only difference is where the coils are.
Am I on the right track or is the voltage too small for the coil(s)?
Megajolt is making a COP version but unknown release date. Here is a spec. sheet on the Megajolt COP:

Summary
Megajolt/COP is a Programmable Crank Fired ignition targeted for intelligent coil-on-plug modules or external igniter applications.
Capabilities
Supported configurations
Up to 8 cylinders in true coil-on-plug mode
Up to 12 cylinders in wasted spark mode
10K+ RPM capable
0.1 degree timing resolution
Features
Dual VR Sensor input
Crank Sensor + Cam Angle Sensor input
8 coil driver outputs
Soft and hard rev limit
Designed to work with commodity OEM sensors and coil packs
Initial support for 36-1 trigger wheel; other trigger wheel configurations to follow
up to 16x16 ignition map with linear interpolation
Dual, on the fly switchable ignition map support
4 User defined digital outputs
3 analog input channels
TPS, Temperature and Aux
Ignition correction for Temperature and Aux
Provision for on-board MAP sensor
On-board expansion for knock sensor module
32 bit 48Mz ARM processor
USB programming interface
Note that it works in wasted spark and sequentical.

COP with HPV-1 or other Electromotive systems
 

Working backward on the question of whether an HPV-1 (or later version, including the EFI one like TEC3) would fire a COP, I tried to get specs on the HPV-1 and later coils.

The following are listed as replacements for what certain GM motors used, and so will will plug into an HPV/TEC3 base:

Accel 140017
MSD 8224
ACDelco D555
Standard DR-39X
Wells C849.

The Accel spec is 0.5 ohms primary, 8.0K ohms secondary, 45KV spark, 75:1 turns ratio.

Same specs for MSD are 0.35/7.8K, 40K, 80:1, and 4.2 mH.

Wells: 0.2-0.7/6-11K.

Without looking at one, I think from something else that these are two wire coils, and use nominal 12V triggered supplies. The TEC3 manual asserts that its coil charging system is inductive, using long duration chargine, rather than capacitive, which uses short duration charging at higher than battery voltage.

The TEC3 manual shows the DFU units being protected by a 20A fuse, with a 12 gauge wire supplying one 3 coil/6 plug unit with its 12 volts. This is listed as a "full time 12V source (9 amps)." Each of those units also gets three additional wires, one for each coil. These wires are 18 gauge, and all three are bundled within a shield. They are denominated as "Ground Pulse" for their respective coils. These are "pull to ground" and the outputs float when the coils fire, with no connection to ground or power per the manual. And the DFU unit itself is separately grounded.

The TEC3 computer only gets a 2A fuse, and 20 gauge wire, suggesting one could not do away with the DFU base, just the coils that sit on it, if running COP off of it. Which would be the same as using an HPV-1, where all the brains and most of the adjustments are in the base plate.

Looks like actual specs for these COP units are hard to come by? But at least one works from a 12V 2 wire?

The nifty WeaponX units look like this might be a bit expensive, especially for twin plug systems, at $60 or so each? I didn't see any specs for them, though.

The TEC3 manual, by the way, shows how to use the coils in a non-waste spark configuration: Ground the unused plug wire terminal with a 16 gauge wire.

Walt

I made a few mods to the drawing above and put the correct firing order and coil pack identification for the HPV-1 on Porsche 911. The 'x's are the junction points where the COP leads would be wired to the wasted spark COP lead.

The thing that makes me very nervous is the impedance of the primary and secondary windings. Notice the Primary Windings of the COP are wired in series and the Secondary Windings are wired in series for their Wasted Spark counterparts.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263829594.jpg

Testing the Kawasaki coil with a 12v charger and got good spark out of it. Charger drops to 9v when it's sparking so might have to get a better power supply. This is the 2 wire coil.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263969301.jpg
this might work with my EDIS setup.

OK, Spoke to the Engineers at Motec in Cali, and my setup will run these ZX6 coils no problem, just need to adjust the settings in the ECU software for the coils to 1.6ms, no brainer. I have a set of Bosch 3 channel ignitors on their way, and when I swap to the twin plug 3.7, I have 6 more coils on hand, 12 total, and can run them in wasted spark. The other option in the BERU coils from the 997 or the SUV, they will run direct off my expander, no ignitors needed, but, there is a small fit issue I am hearing with these coils..

Why not run sequential?

No need to waste 3 outputs from the box that could be used for something better.

I would need to add an ignition Expander inorder to run the 12 coils in sequential mode, just as effective to have the top plugs fire sequential, and the lowers fire in waisted off the tops.

to clarify, the M48 ECU has only one output for ignition, so there is an 8 channel expander being used (MOtec IEX), and from there the 6 outputs leads will feed the 2-3 channel ignitors, which in turn will fire the 6 plugs in the single plug application in sequential mode, then I can add the lower coils, and split the respective ignitor feed to fire the lowers in waisted mode..
Whew.. OR I may grab the 997 coils, unload the ignitors and just run them off the expanders 6 channels split.. Just looking for fit info on the 997 coils on air cooled heads/valve covers..

ONQRacing,

You might want to re-think that wasted spark on the lower plugs, if it is the lower plug of the same cylinder making power it is a bad thing. The wasted spark deal is based on firing the plug gap on the opposite cylinder because it is easy to fire while not on compression.

PFM

It would be better to fire two channels on the ignitor from one output of the ignition expander and keep it simple. You would just need two more 3 channel ignitors. Verify with motec but this should work. I know you can fire two Denso 580's (they have a built in ignitor) from one output.

Here are some pictures of how the Beru 997 COP's fit: Please note these are fully seated in the opening and on the plug.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4039/...0546a685b6.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2764/...7e8d68ba27.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2793/...d9b4f3129c.jpg

Bottom Fitment: I did not have plugs installed but this is what it looks like pushed all the way in until it hits the valve cover.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2678/...af05ddbc_b.jpge

Thanks Bill,
This may be the ticket for us, this setup will allow a true sequenqial fire, and the fit is not as bad as I imagined. I can fab an aluminum piece that goes cross stud, to ensure there is no wiggle on the COPs. These require NO ignitor, therefore that is one less item to fail....

I may have 12 KAWI coils on the market now......

PFM, I agree with you imput, there will be only sequential fire on the twin plug.

Thanks

Very educational!

I know this is not the correct forum for this but, since we are going to use the 997 stuff on the race car, since looks do not matter on the track to us, we are selling our 12 KAWASAKI ZX6R Coils..

PM for details..

Bill.... You gonna unload the Boxter ones????? HMMM>>>>

I will also post in the for sale forum...

Andrew

I would love to see what you come up with. I am also trying to accomplish the same thing with a twin plugged 3.2SS Turbo motor running an M600 ECU from Motec. I like the idea of using a Porsche part that has the ignitor built into it. O was thinking of trying to fab one myself but I already have so much to do with this build as it is. I am going to try to install some plugs in the lowers to see how it really sits when fully seated on a plug.

I also have no doubt that the spark energy will be sufficient to fire under 1 bar of boost with these coils. I should have no problems having two per cylinder.

I just purchased the single COP to test for fitment from an eBay seller for $44 each (+$5 SH) or $239 (Free SH) for a set of 6 . PM for a link.

Bill

Rothsport makes billet top covers with mounting points for late model porsche cop.

I would really like to see a set of those installed.. Anyone using them? THeir site is still being updated for all their products.

Bill,
I was looking into your setup, the M600, I believe there are 6 ignition outputs from the ECU, and they are the drivers for the coils, so, 12 plugs would split and double each respective ignition wire to their respective coil(s), and you need 12V from the switch, and ground for each coil. The 997 COPs have enough energy for your application. I think your car is a street ride, so I could see how wiring and fit are your concern, since we all like things to be neat. Raychem heat shrink is worth the small expense in my opinion..

I am heading to my shop this weekend to remove my Motec igniter and excess harnesses, lay out a rough harness for 6 plugs for now. I have a tool and die guy from Boeing working the valve cover issue for aluminum clips. (We also may be able to open the holes for the COP shaft and get a better fit, then use a larger rubber seal ring, since this is a dry are of the covers.)

We are looking to source the needed connectors, the P-car diagrams do not list the connectors by number, but this should be a non-issue once the units are in-house..
My thoughts on the lower 6 (once I am ready for the 3.7) is to FAB a thin aluminum heat shield, apply heat reflective Gold tape, and add a few thermocouples to monitor the temp on the units until I am satisfied they are ok...
I will post pics and more details as they become available...

Bill, I am sure we will keep in touch off line on this as well....


Andrew

That sounds good Andrew. I am going to reach out to Rothsport and see if I can get a price and picture for their valve covers as well.

Bill

I took my plugs out of my motor on the stand and realized that I did not have the screw on ends on the plugs. I installed them to get a better idea of how the 997 coils would fit. They actually sit a little higher than shown in my pictures. This makes things a little easier as you will not have to clearance the valve covers for the coils. I also installed my lower plus and found the same thing. It looks like a simple bracket using the valve cover bolts could easily be made. Rothsport's billet valve covers would be much more expensive I would imagine.

Rothsport Valve covers grabed from another thread:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1257903978.jpg

I emailed them regarding these covers, no reply.. I am sure someone else makes these.. Dawe?

After installing the coils on the stand I realized that it really would not take much to make a mount for them. I will try to take some good picks for you tonight.

Bill

Bill,
It may pay to just align and drill for studs..Or. I am leaning towards 0.060 T4 bent retainers to go across the face of the coils from stud to stud. Quick, easy and cheap, plus minimal weight gain..
Also, I have tech info from BERU, on these puppies..
still a few weeks out for me.. Need the connector info as well, I put a feeler on the 997 board..
Andrew

I emailed Motec on the connector info as well. These things are in everything from 993-996's so i am sure they have come across them.

Andrew I also shot you an email regaurding the BERU info and mounts.

Bill

If anyone is looking for these BERU coils they are available from our host with free shipping (if you spend $75)!

$43 Each

sent an email to you about the BERU..

Does anyone know if the 997 BERU coils are "SELF" ignited? or, does the DME have an internal igniter? I have been speaking to Motec again, and they, SIMON< have informed me that my setup, the M48, will not split the Porsche coils due to available voltage from the expander, but they will run a 6 pack. Bosch offers a self igniter, the P35-T, which will do the trick, if you can find them.. The hunt continues..

Or, I can upgrade to an M600.. Anyone have one?

Subscribed!

Ok, Latest update to the saga...
After a long email discussion with my friends at Motec, I am out of luck on my desire for COP with my current motec M48 steup. At a minimum, a M600 is needed to fire these BERU coils, an most others due tot he ma require to trigger, which need external igniters per BERU engineering here in the US>

So, I am sourcing a three channel Bosch igniter, to replace my current 6 channel GM igniter, and run my 2.9 in wasted spark, with my 3X2 Bosch Motorsports coil pack, until the Budget allows for the M600 upgrade.
So, there will be a fully optioned M4-8 available with an ignition expander to allow up to 12 cyls in waste moe in the near future..

Wow, not quite sure how I missed this thread. I have this exact project going on to my fathers 89 Carrera. We had to order the connectors from Germany believe it or not. A guy in NY imported them for us and sold them to us in TX. I still have the baggies with PN on them laying around somewhere if somebody is interested.

You said you have info on these COP units, I would greatly appreciate any data sheets you have.

EdHenkel@gmail.com

I'm trying to make these work with our Megasquirt system. I was under the impression they had ignitors built in, only requiring a driver to fire them off?

constant 12, Gnd and a switched 5v to fire?

Would really appreciate any spec sheets!
-Ed

997 MK2 coil use on 965
 

I just bought 997 MK2 coil ( see photos). and I'd like to use it on my 965. But I don't know if I connect to coil wiring, which wiring is connect to positive which is to ground? the other two to DME? If you want to use it at Motec M1, I need to know what that 4 pins stand for?

thanks for your help and timely answer.