using a "coil pack" ignition
 

I am in the process of rebuilding a 73 1/2 2.4T w/CIS. Does anybody make an electronic ignition / coil packs kit for these engines? Just wondering since my dizzy seems to be toast and trying to think outside the box. Or...anybody got any other ignition ideas?

How about coil on plug?
Neat...small...only primary wires to route (small wire).
Available from several places...Ford...Chrysler...etc.
You can buy them from your local parts supplier (aftermarket).
Does away with the distributor.
Some only need a single trigger to work....so you only need to have a hole drilled and tapped into the damper to get it to run.
Bob

I saw this link on an earlier thread. looks interesting.
http://www.compu-tronix.com/DIS6911.htm

regards,
al

For a 73-1/2 CIS 911T I recommend the factory distributor, Pelican sells a rebuilt one for $503. Any other alternative will be more money and require more tuning and setup time. . . and for a CIS 911T won't make any more power.

I have used coils from Kawasaki Ninja ZX 600 Motorcycle engines for years. You can find them on ebay for ~$15 each. They are designed to rev to 15,000 RPM. They come with boots that make them fit like they were designed to go into the plug tunnel of a 911 motor. The length is perfect. You can unscrew the coils from the control plate of an Electromotive ignition system, then wire a low current wire harnes from the ignition plate prongs to the coils. I have used a single 3 coil controller to run a twin plug system. You get the added bennefit that the plugs fire at exactly the same time.

If you do this, you have to take the tip off the plugs. These coils are designed to snap onto the threaded end of the plug.

Mark

Mark,
which version of the ninja ZX 600 coils are you using? The older w/seprate coils/plugs or the newer with the coil housed in the spark plug housing? pix?

Al

They are the later type that come from ~2005 ZX600 bikes. Here's an ebay link for a set of 4 for $45.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/05-Kawasaki-Ninja-ZX-600-Ignition-Coils-ZX600_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el111 6QQitemZ220161484245

I've collected boxes of them for my race engines and they work great.

The Iridium plugs that come in the "R" version of these bikes are also very good. They are 10mm plugs so you have to weld up the plug hole and re-tap. The heat ranges are very cold for high compression and you can get more compression with 2 of these small plugs in the head. The plug relief volume is much smaller.

I'm currently building a GT3 motor for my 914-6 race car so I guess I'm going back to grown-up sized plugs. I'm still going to use the bike coils with my Electromotive controller.

Mark

Thanks mark...that's what I thought...got em.

al

yep kos bought em !!
Good luck here !!
Al, please post pics and what you do here for us all !!
Mark, can you also post pics of what set up you have done ??
Thanks all... great info here !!
Bob

ahdoman

Don't mean to hijack your thread but very interested in the cop option.

Mark - If I understand correctly i could get rid of all the spark plug wires ( by using the Ninja ZX600 coils) and one of the 3 coil controllers and still keep the twin plug setup.

Any info/ pics would be appreciated.
Sluggohttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1224967770.jpg

The COP system still has wires going to the spark plugs....but they are only low voltage wires.
You need a power and ground to each coil-on-plug unit, that comes from a controller, but they can almost be hidden in the grooves of the valve covers.
Some systems are so clean, you almost have to use a magnefier to see any wires at all!
Bob

Yes. Also, Bob is correct. All you need is a single 3 coil electromotive controller. You remove the coil packs. There are 2 prongs under each coil. From the hot wire under each coil, you run 4 wires (1 each to the hot side of the twin coils on each cylinder the electromotive coil would normally fire to, 4 wires total). You also need to run the ground pin to the same 4 coils (ground pin on the coils). You do this for each of the three coil pack signal prongs on the Electromotive controller plate. Keep the second controller as a backup. I don't have pictures (sold my air cooled race engine with the system on board).

The controller charges the coils, then the ground circuit is closed when the computer wants the coils to fire. You don't have to worry about cross fire problems because the wires only transmit 12 volts. Bundle the wires into a nice harness around the engine compartment or on the motor. I make up RSR type clips to hold the coils from vibrating out of the spark plug holes. The coils are heavier than the Porsche boots and will fall out faster than the boots will.

You can put the Electromotive unit inside the car where it is cool. You don't have to worry about the legth of the wires.

Most of the Electomotive units have a place to plug in a remote rev limiter controller. I'm mounting a switch with a resister on my dash so I can switch the soft ignition cut-out to 7,500 or 8,500 or 9,500 at will. If I want to save fuel in an enduro or my GT3 motor longevity, I'll lower it. If I want to pass someone, I'll bump it up.

i guess any multi-coil type ignition controller, including efi controllers with ignition control could run these coils - right? Great find with the kawasaki coils! this could possibly be the cheapest way to get a twin plug system i've seen yet. $50-100 for coils, approx $200 for a salvaged controller, $200 for trigger wheel/sensor and $500 for head machining = $1000

That's right! Only you forgot the $20,000 you will spend converting your motor to a 3.8L RSR engine becasue you have it apart and might as well do it now! That also neglects a few thousand in beer being swilled by you and a dozen friends discussing how much faster your car is going to be with twin plugs! What starts out as a "cost savings" always devolves into a much bigger expense. At least it hapens like that in my garage.

Mark

yeah, i left the $20k "while your in there" out because it really is assumed at this point!

A wiring diagram of that Ninja coil setup would be gold.

Seek and you shall find.........gotta love the World Wide Web! :)

http://www.wiringdiagrams21.com/2006-kawasaki-ninja-650r-er6f-wiring-diagram/

Password for the PDF file is in the text on the web page (PASS).

I can't get thw wiring diagram(s) to open... can someone please post the page(s) here now to help those in need and any future referencing.
Thanks!!
Bob

What problem are you having?

hey dave... nothing happens when I type in the password "pass" in the box...

Sorry. If you look on the web page, the password is next to "PASS"........it's "wiringdiagrams21.com"....no quotes. good luck.

I am a little confused...

Are you trying to fire more than one coil at a time with same ground trigger wire from the ignitor/controller?

Cheers

Its a 48MB file so no postie here. Its 125 pages of delight. Lots of detail there, I'll have to take a look later at the ignition sections...

This COP solution is incredible. How well do the lower plug coils handle the exhaust heat? Please post some pictures of your setup and 3 coil controller.
I assume that you are actually producing a "pseudo-wasted spark" ignition with this scheme, is that correct?

Yes, pics tell a thousand words and I am reaaaally interested in doing this for my car.

Subtract $175 for the controller wheel...you can graft a cheap toothed wheel onto your existing crank wheel for about $25. Subtract the $500 for head machining, since that is assumed. Twin plug for under $400. Compelling? YOU BET YOUR SWEET A$$!!!

I still want to see the setup and wiring for a vehicle running 12 plugs and only 3 ignitors....

Cheers

+1
I can see two modified HPV-1 modules required for something like this.

I run 2. Not sure how 3 works?

I would be a lot more interested in how you can fire a six cylinder engine with 2 ignitors...

You use one three channel ignitor for 6 plug waste spark, two three channel for dual plug waste spark.

Actually, "waste spark" is a misnomer in this case. A true "waste spark" system uses one double ended coil for 2 cylinders, and a common high voltage circuit for 2 spark plugs. If you could, without shocking the bejeezus out of yourself, pull one plug wire, you would kill two cylinders. What makes it work is that the inert exhaust gases in the non power producing cylinder have very little resistance to a spark jumping the plug, so the voltage goes to the cylinder on the compression stroke.

This system uses a pseudo-waste spark system. It triggers 2 separate coils, one on the exhaust stroke of a cylinder, and one on the compression stroke of a different cylinder. More efficiency can be gained by using a true sequential ignition system.

Don't get me wrong, this is a very ingenious way to setup your ignition, and I am sure it works great. I am taking note of this for my project.

But for the cool look factor, I am probably going with an old school RSR Style twin plug distributor.

Actually, it looks like it triggers 4 coils simultaneously, 2 on the compression stroke and 2 on the exhaust stroke like wasted spark which would use only 2 coils for the same number of spark plugs.

Mine is Accell 6-tower coils (same as EDIS-6) with a pair of triple-channel Haltech ignitors. I have burned through 2 Haltechs.

So correct me if I am wrong; to build a twin plug ignition all you need is:

12 - 2005 ZX650R COP coils; $200 Ebay
6 - lower cover plug wire holders; $66.50 Pelican
1 - 3 coil electromotive controller; HPV-1? HPX? Tec1?
1 - crank sensor; $10 Detroit type Ebay - hand built mount
1 - Toothed crank timing wheel; $25 Aftermarket Ebay
1 - spool of wire to build the low voltage harness

Is this right?

Our Twin-Plug DIS is on the way... currently we are still in testing with it.

A prototype was on display at SEMA, and will also be on display at PRI. It will include an internal rev limiter and tach driver. It will be a drop in- plug in- system.
No mods required...;)

Food for thought...

http://compu-tronix.com/DIS6911.htm

http://compu-tronix.com/DIS6911Assembled319x377.png

Mark,
So the Kawasaki coils are being driven by 12 Volts and the Electromotive Controller? (Best I can tell from Kawasaki service manuals is that the coils run on 100 volts).

Also, other than getting a wiring harness is there a source or part number for the connectors for the coils?

Thanks
Paul

This is great.... I already have a dual plug setup using a mazda distributor for crank angle sensor ( 24/2 teeth). I have 2 ignitors and an EMS Stinger ECU. The setup uses 2 Ford tripple coils packs ( dual poll ). This gives a wasted spark system.

I have been looking at ways to eliminate the colipack and COP loks good. I am about to replace the wiring harness as it is a hashup of the original one from the previous owner.

I will replace the harness and leave enough space to change this to a COP via a plug.....this way I can change back to the original if it proves to be more trouble than it is worth.

let me know how things progress with this project...

Cheers

Mark.......

Anyone have ideas for 3-channel ignitors that could handle the pencil coils and sources/costs? Are there potential used sources in the U-pull junkyards?