3.0 SC High Performance Rebuid
 

After many requests to post a thread on my rebuild project I have decided to put myself out there for scrutiny. Have at it!

The basis is:
3.0 SC case
stock crank std / std
stock rods w/ race ware bolts by Aaron @ Rennwerks
JE 10.5 : pistons with poly dyne thermal top coat and oil retention skirt coat (new)
twin plug big port SC heads by Aaron @ Rennwerks
GE 60 cams (used)
46 mm Webers (used)
SSI w 2 in 2 out (used)

Budget: $7500 total
Target: 275 RWHP

I have everything except Aarons work for under $5,000 thanks to our host and this site. We'll see how it shakes out.
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Thanks for posting. I'm gearing up for a very similar build. Are you going with a twin plug dizzy or crankfire for spark?

Did you do anything to the cylinders to prep them for the JE's

Tom

Thanks for posting. I am about to do an almost identical build, but without twin plugs (relying on good gas) and DC62 cams instead of GE60's (similar).

How you found 46mm webers and all that other stuff for less than $5K I'll never know... :-)

I figure 275 wheel horsepower is optimistic. I'm aiming for 275 flywheel horsepower. I'll be interested to see how you end up.

Cheers,

Tom & Craig,

I am Using an Electromotive ignition set up by Clewett. Considering my budget, the other options were too much money. The cylinders are Mahle nicasil units that are being honed for the new pistons by Aaron @ Rennwerks.

I'm cheating a little on this budget and taking advantage of the economy. There are some really good deals out there. I really didn't need 46s and could have saved a lot of cash by using 40s instead but I don't think my RWHP goals would have been achievable without the 46s. Most of my upgrade parts are used except for the pistons and ignition. I paid $300 for the SSI at a Porsche swap meet! They are not cosmetically perfect but will function just fine.

My $7500 budget is for the upgrade necessities alone. I'm not including things like Carrera tensioners or a new clutch cost in the budget because they are not mandatory for the goal. I was actually thinking of using mechanical tensioners! I love to monkey around with this car and adjusting cam chain tensioners every 5,000 miles is not an issue to me. I'd probably have done it every time I changed oil @ 3,000 miles anyway.

The biggest thing so far has been with the cleaning of the case. This process takes a lot of time and effort but I think it's worth every minute. I had them tanked first to get rid of the sludge and grime. Them I used a half case of carb cleaner to get all the grit out of the inside. Then I hand washed them with Dawn liquid detergent and water and scotch brite pads. After the hand wash I blew everything out until dry and oiled and tested the piston squirters. I had some issues with the piston squirters and developed yet another tool for blocking the case through bolt holes to get air pressure to the squirters (see attached photo) It's 3/8 fuel line with a #8 stud pushed inside to fatten it up then the edge ground off with the bench grinder. The taper created with the grinding gets the fat line past the oil hole for the squirter and set up a good seal.

It will be a while before any progress because a lot of the parts are on there way to Aaron for rework. My coated bearings are ready for pick up so I'll install those Tuesday night.

Have fun with your builds, I am.

Mike

Piston Squirter Tool
 

3/8 fuel line with #8 stud pushed inside and ground off edges. Lightly oil before using. Works great!http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258899131.jpg
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By the way; my squirters were really stuck because the motor sat for 15 years without being run. I ran across another post here that said they had good luck with Sea Foam injector cleaner. This stuff, for whatever reason, works wonders. After hours with carb cleaner and air; nothing! Five drops of Sea Foam and ten minutes I put the air to it and blast off! I repeated this about four times until I got a consistent spray from each jet. Lastly, I blew Mobil 1 through each jet to lubricate them while waiting for the assembly. Next time I'll know.

Here's what you should expect:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/246563-another-rsr-clone-project-dyno-day.html

285 hp at the flywheel.

If I can make 250 RWHP, especially with my budget, I'll be a happy camper. How do you like the way it runs? Does it come on the cam pretty hard or is it fairly linear? Beautiful car and motor.

Lindy

The motor runs great.

I use it 80% street and 20% track. The gearbox has been designed around the motor with 3rd, 4th and 5th down stacked for 150MPH at 7500 RPM. I'd recommend this with the GE60 cams.

The motor is very responsive and steetable below 3500 RPM. From 3500 to 8000 RPM if pulls like a sport bike. I use a manually limited 7500 red line at the track.

I built just about the same thing for 260 FWHP.

Just got my pistons and bearings back from Poly-Dyne; wow! I will post pics when my computer decides to wake up. I had the piston skirts and bearings coated with their oil retaining coat and anti scuff and the piston tops with the thermal barrier. I don't think any of this is a necessity but Poly-Dyne is not far from here and they took an interest in my "budget project".

Pictures to follow.

Lindy

you should get the heads TBC coated as well. include the exhaust port and backside of the exhaust valve. I coated almost moving part in the top end of my 3.2SS and notice a bit of difference in cooling.

Almost the same as mine I managed 204 rwhp. Obviously the usual Dyno discrepancy discussion is needed here.

I put GE80 in mine and limited to 7300 for longevity....I can go to 8000 but it sounds scary at those revs.....also expensive. I have over camed it for the street. Takes a while to get used to how to drive it and everything is at the top on WOT.....but FUN.....!

I'm not any kind of dyno expert, but if 204 was the max you saw with all the changes made I would suspect somethings amiss. We routinely make over 60 hp with a 650 cc single air cooled motor; two valve head, not as much cam and smaller induction than what we are doing with the 911 motor. I know it adds up to a 3.9 liter motor but it also adds up to 360 HP or 90 HP per liter. My guess is that 270 FWHP is not hard to do especially with 46 mm Webers, almost .5" lift cam and 10.5 to 1 compression. It's an air pump not unlike many others.

The biggest caveat; it will have to rev.

While the parts are being serviced in various parts of the country, I thought it would be a good time to get the pressure washer out and irritate my neighbors. Lots of gunk in the engine bay and wheel wells. It looks a lot better after P-wash! I will re-paint the engine bay, fender wells and freshen the bushings all around. Turbo tie rods and re-built calipers on new rotors. Piston and bearing photos this afternoon.

Lindyhttp://i857.photobucket.com/albums/a...1start2257.jpghttp://i857.photobucket.com/albums/a...1start2258.jpghttp://i857.photobucket.com/albums/a...1start2259.jpg

Lindy 911...I was disappomted with 204 but I have limited it to 7300 although it is built for 8k. With race springs and ARP rodbolts. I think the biggest thing is that on this dyno it is comparable to a 5.0 ltr V8 that has been mildly worked over. I am sure that on another dyno it would produce better figures.

If reved to 8k is would be in the 240-250rwhp region. JohnJL is in the same ball park not sure what he is reving his to. What is your rev ceiling?

Mark.......

Mark.....

Sub'ed

??

Sub'd means I just subscribed to this thread it's a good one!

Gotcha! Stay tuned, it's about to heat up.

Lindy

subscribed.

Update:

Waiting on parts to be finished at varoius machine shops around the country. I did get my pistons and bearing back from Poly-Dyne. Cases are ready with new bearings installed.

Lindy

December 1, 2009 update:
Bearings installed in case and Poly-Dyne looks great. New JE pistons with Poly-Dyne slide coat on skirt and thermal barrier coat on crown.
Took some time to pull all the unused crap out of the car; there's a lot of stuff that doesn't need to be there. I stripped out the AC and all related components and wiring. Stripped out all unused wiring and there was a ton up front. I will retain the heat and plumbing. Thinking about relocating the battery to the old AC well?????

Installed new rebuild pedal cluster. I need the return spring for the brake pedal if anyone knows where to get one.

Ahhhh; new (to me) 46mm Webers in great shape! Sourced from a Pelicanite!

Spoke to Arron today at Rennwerks; rods are scrap. Someone tried to balalnce by removing the web on the cap like a SBC. We're looking for some used Pauters or the like. Heads are good to go except for the usual exhaust guides and a couple of exhaust valves. We're just going to replace all the guides and exhaust valves. New 90lb springs and titanium keepers for the GE 60 cams and 7,500 rpm rev limit.

Barrels are in great shape with just a hone needed for the new 10.5 JE's.

Crank measured as new. Had it polished and it looks like it just came out of the box. I'm going to spend some time cleaning it with gun brush through oil galleys and pump lots of barsol through it.

Assembly should start in a week or so.

Time for a glass of red.

Lindy





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Any updates on this? Just curious, how many miles were on the motor?

Carrerax,

Aaron will be shipping parts this afternoon so I can get started on the reassembly some time in the next few days. The car has 97,000 miles. I'll post pics of Aarons work when I get the pieces in.

Lindy

I hope that bottle of Coors Light(in the pic of the piston) is for holding cleaning fluid or oil or something. You don't actually drink that stuff, do you? BTW, interesting build and pics. Thanks.

I think the problem with Marks motor is he put 8000 RPM cams into a motor he redlines at 7300. GE 40 or 60 would've worked much better.

-Andy

Dees 911,

In Texas we use Coors Light in place of water, just about the same thing. If you will notice, the mountains are blue on the label signaling the "water" is cold! I just got off the phone with Aaron and all parts are in the FedEx bin waiting for pick up. I am getting very excited. The more I research the more I believe this motor will make 100 HP per liter + or - a few. My goal for weight is 2300 pounds; with 300 HP this SC should fly.

Lindy

With my experience with Ferrari engines, using that kind of cam in a 3L 308 engine spinning that high leads to disaster on the street, especially with carbs. A 308 engine with that kind of compression and somewhat similar cams makes about 285bhp @ about 8k rpm. I would not think a 3L 911 engine would not be far off that. I believe 275rwbhp would need about 325bhp with a 915 tranny.

Lucky he's not building a Ferrari engine then! GE-60's are perfect as is the 7500 RPM for your application. I suspect the power will be around 275 at the flywheel.

-Andy

another datapoint.

3.0 Elgin Mod S cams, 9.3:1 C.R. Mahle pistons, Heads rebuilt and ported by Competition Eng to I think 39 on the intake...been a while. Weber 40s w/ 36mm venturi, tall manifold, single plug ignition w/ MSD 6AL and SSI exhaust and I too had Poly-Dyn coat the pistons.

Dyno 212 rwhp at Protechnik a number of years back.

GE-60 is 264 dur @ .050 last I checked with the ex being around 253 @ .050? This is pretty hot street stuff. Lower end bhp (below 3500) might be about even with stock, but it's of course the top end which gets all the power. I am sure the engine will run well from idle on up, but do not expect a big power gain at lower rpm where much of the street driving is done. 230rwbhp might be a more realistic goal. Sounds like a ton of fun regardless.

I know the HP figures are all over the board but I'm optimistic that we will be in the 285-300 range at the crank. I am familiar with Pro Techniks chassis dyno and may ask them to make a pull or two when fine tuning as they are just down the road from me in Houston. I also have access to a water brake dyno that we use for motorcycle engines that will handle 500 hp. It will require a custom set up to use without the trans axle to measure crank hp. We'll see if that works out.

JMZ, I'm looking at making most of my HP at above 5,000 and will probably peak near 7800 or so. I had Arron use racing springs and titanium retainers for this reason. We also used Raceware rod bolts with re-sized stock rods. With the big port '78 SC heads and PMO manifolds with 46 mm Webers, I think 285-300 is very do-able and will live. Making 100 HP with 1000 cc is not hard with an inline four; I don't see why a flat six should make any difference.

The main focus of this build is to create a sport bike that has four wheels. No AC, no extra crap and as light as I can reasonably get it without breaking the bank. It will not be a daily commuter car and will be treated much like a Ducati or RC51. My wife says I'm too old and stupid for two wheels now (especially around Houston) but she is cool with the black Targa.

Lindy

What is the intake flow at 28" (or 10" which you have)? A more reaslistic bhp figure might be deduced with that extra figure. From what I can tell now with this cam, dynamic ratio you are running, installed centers of that cam and lsa, peak bhp will probably not be much past 7400.

Definitely get it on a flywheel dyno for breaking in, and then I would try and find a Mustang dyno. Dynajets are for bragging rights while Mustangs give more realistic figures. Must be why they are known as heartbreaker dynos.

Lindy,

I'd say you are pretty close as long as everything works in concert together.

Assuming a 15% drive-line loss I'm at roughly 240-245 at the crank. I am not sure how the Mod S compares to the GE60 cam - at one point I thought they were the same but have been told that mine is more like a GE40...

So if you have bigger carbs, bigger cam and more compression yours should be pushing a few more ponies than mine. ...mine is probably pushing about 150:mad: now though... major tuning issues or something worse. It's been parked for about a year now while I devote my time and energy elsewhere. -hope to get on it pretty soon though.

Don't forget about your gearbox. I am not sure what you have but you can make these cars a lot more fun by tightening up the ratios a bit.

Jay,
I've given the gear box thing some thought, but not much. I've never been in a 915 but it looks pretty straight forward. I hate to keep talking about motor cycles here but a close ratio box does make a huge difference in the two wheeled world.

As far as "intake flow" is concerned, I have not one clue. If peak HP happens at or near 7400 that's perfect; but I suspect it will be a tad higher. I have no equations to prove this up other than "seat-of-the-pants" experience. Our 1000 cc Kawasaki motors make 120+ hp naturally aspirated at about 11,000 rpm. The reciprocating mass is much smaller, as is the size of the valve train so they can stand the revs. The cranks also have roller bearing mains in a wet sump and can be spun to 15,000 without issues so these are not "one-pull-wonders". The same motors with reduced static compression and turbo charging make well over 300 hp. They are blinding fast; 70 mph roll on front wheel float!

Anyway, I love this site and the conversation. Keep it coming!

Lindy

Turbo stuff is fast, no doubt about it! Call me old school, but I prefer naturally aspirated engines. Both push different buttons I guess.

Intake flow is the big one when it comes to any engine, but especially naturally aspirated. If you don't have the proper cfm from the heads and intake manifold, than a great cam is not going to as great as it can be. Your carb setup beefed up your cfm in a big way, but several heads just don't flow well over a certain amount of lift. I am not a Porsche head expert, but I am well aware of engines that run out of any substantial flow gains at say .300 lift making any further lift a moot point without substantial head work. I know the SC heads from '78-'79 engines had somewhat larger ports than the later SC, but neither flowed as well as 3.2 heads from the factory. Should be ok regardless, but that is where the 100bhp per liter kind of power is hidden.

From what I understand and have gleaned from this site, the '78-'79 SC head being hemispherical and with the valve angle utilized is an excellent hot rod head. When asked, the experts here have not mentioned retro-fitting 3.2 heads in place of the early SC head for a performance gain. I'm not saying it isn't so, just that no one here has mentioned it before. I do know that the SC heads work very well and like a lot of cam.

Lindy

Sounds like a good thread for me to research!

I received my parts from Arron over the weekend an they look great. Nice work Arron! Just an FYI for those of you building a motor in 30-40 degree temps., the assembly lube recomended in Waynes book is VERY thick in these temperatures. I assembled my case and it looked beautiful.... until I tried to rotate the crank. It would turn but it took a lot to get it to move by hand using the front pulley. I thought surely something was amiss so apart it came. I cleaned the the crank and bearings of the assembly lube and then lightly oiled with Mobil One and put it back together just to see. It turns easily and freely now with a slight drag. Wow, now I have to reorder through-bolt "O" rings and wait for them to get here.....drag. So either heat your garage or roll the dice. I'll post some photos later.

Lindy