2.2 - To Rebuild or Buy A Rebuilt?

[spastrone]

When I bought my '71 911T 10 years ago, it was in excellent shape, but the engine was out of it...and it still is. Sitting in my garage are the car, the three engines (in various states of dis-repair), two 901 trannys, and one set of Zenith carbs that came with it. The time has come to drive it and I need to know the best way to make it happen.

What is the best combination of options to get it running for the lowest cost? What reputable shops do exchanges or rebuilds for parts...I'd be willing to give ALL the parts to them? I am also willing to do some of the work myself. I am in the Bay Area. Any advise?

[Steve@Rennsport]

Hi,

Buying a rebuilt motor is all about who did the work, the parts list, and precisely what was done. The quality and thus, reliability can be wildly different, based on those variables.

My question is always: Whats your budget? Thats what will determine how you go about this and what you get.

[Henry Schmidt]

Long hood Porsches are becoming very valuable and matching numbers only adds to that value.
I would contact Porsche and get a certificate of authenticity. They cost about a $100 and it will tell you whether or not any of your parts match the chassis you own.
If the engine or trans numbers match, have those parts rebuilt. I just did an engine on my own 69 T and elected to rebuild the 69 engine because to number matched. I'm doing the same thing now with my 70 T.
If the parts don't match an exchange engine from a reputable builders might be a good option. An exchange engine could offer you the chance to upgrade to an engine with better performance if more performance is your desire.

[spastrone]

Thanks for your responses, Steve and Henry.
Since I've got your attention, I will bore you with more of my dilemma...

The bottom line here is that I want to drive my 911! I don't want to enter concourses or have a garage trophy or go crazy fast (yet)...I just want to drive. Originally, I sold my 912 to get THIS car because I wanted a 911 and it was cheap (due to the disembodied engine).

I get the part about matching numbers (I think I do in fact have the original block and 901 + I like the COA idea) and I know that you get out of building an engine right what you put into it...but, at this point I'm willing to put into the car whatever will happen most efficiently, i.e. fast and affordable.

Someday it would be a blast to install a 3.0 or 3.2, but for now I think my best bet is to revive one of the 2.2's that is actually completely assembled. It is a reman engine that the previous owner bought to use while the original engine was rebuilt. What made it quit was that the rocker shafts backed out due to improperly installed retaining bolts. So, the valves stopped opening and the engine quit and there it sits. Probably no damage at all happened!

Finally, as you said, these cars are real classics now, which makes me wonder if, since my only goal is to drive, perhaps I should just get it going enough to sell it (or sell it as is) to a true refurb geek and go find an SC or older Carrera so I don't wreck a true classic.

[brads911sc]

If it were me, and I knew that there wasnt catastrophic damage to the original engine.. Id put the numbers matching engine in the car. Fix the rockers myself. Do some light work, valve adjustment, tune up, etc (do some of this before you stick it in the car)... see if I could get it running. If not, I might have it towed to a shop like Henry's and have them do a leak down, compression, and see if they can diagnose and do minor repairs to get it running. Then you can sell or keep a numbers matching car with some diagnosis already performed. This will be worth far more, even if it doesnt run, than a roller and three loose engines laying in your garage. That plan would require some time and wrenching on your part. Some learning too.
If you dont have that interest, you could probably sell the entire package for what you can get a nice running SC for... youll be driving alot sooner possibly if you take this approach... But you could be leaving serious money on the table... and will be discarding a longhood for an SC... not sure that is an even trade.
probably need to know more about the three engines and what your interest is... Obviously the cheapest if you are good at wrenching is to use what you have...

[spastrone]

Yes, I'm good at wrenching and would love to put time into it; it's the knowledge that eludes me...which is where the value of a good shop is, I know. I am sponge for knowledge from books and the web, however.

BTW, the numbers-matching engine is totally apart (case not cracked, but everything else in boxes)...it's the re-manufactured engine that had the rocker shaft issue.

So, maybe that's my answer...since I don't care as much about the re-maned engine and it's the closest to complete, I should just get that one going at use it till it dies. In the mean time, I can properly rebuild the numbers-matching engine for eventual sale.

Great, now...did I mention that it's been over 15 years since any of this stuff has functioned? Can I just fix the rocker thing, replace the oil, and crank it up on the engine stand? Oh, yah...after I rebuild the Zeniths!!!

[brads911sc]

Sounds like a good plan.

There is probably more to it than that. there are some posts here about steps to take on an engine that sat a long time. Do a search over on the regular technical thread...

FWIW, I never did any of the things that are listed below in my signature. I have done them on old VW's and a couple 914's, but not on a 911... and I did it all myself over the last 4 years. Only thing I have used a shop for is my alignment and corner balance and the machine work on my engine. So dont feel like you need a shop. Buy a bentley, waynes engine book, waynes 101 project book, and post your projects on here. you will get help.

See my ITB thread, My 3.0 engine overhaul thread. I am set straight on a regular basis...

Sounds like a great project. Keep us posted.

Originally Posted by spastrone

Yes, I'm good at wrenching and would love to put time into it; it's the knowledge that eludes me...which is where the value of a good shop is, I know. I am sponge for knowledge from books and the web, however.

BTW, the numbers-matching engine is totally apart (case not cracked, but everything else in boxes)...it's the re-manufactured engine that had the rocker shaft issue.

So, maybe that's my answer...since I don't care as much about the re-maned engine and it's the closest to complete, I should just get that one going at use it till it dies. In the mean time, I can properly rebuild the numbers-matching engine for eventual sale.

Great, now...did I mention that it's been over 15 years since any of this stuff has functioned? Can I just fix the rocker thing, replace the oil, and crank it up on the engine stand? Oh, yah...after I rebuild the Zeniths!!!

[Grady Clay]

spastrone,
Welcome to the Forum
You have access to the knowledge and experience – RIGHT HERE.

The first order of business is to post images of everything.
This way the Forum can help you identify what you have.
You will find the non-numbers matching won’t be an issue.
Just get it running with the best and easiest parts.


Pick a small, well defined area – like the rocker shaft issue – and search Pelican.
Use that information gained and post some specific questions.
Posting clear images will also help.
This way you will get specific answers to a specific issue.

Continue with other questions.
Pretty soon you will have the car together and running.


There are plenty of Pelicans in the Bay Area (including those with feathers).
You will find some volunteer help close at hand.
(A few beers may help.)

Keep in mind that it is not only the engine that has not been running for 15 years.
Lots of systems in the car will need attention.
Brakes being one of the most important.



Now … IF you decide to look into selling the car & stuff, get some expert advice as to what you have and what condition.
Don’t take one person’s opinion.
Finding this information will help you make the rebuild decision and doesn’t preclude rebuilding yourself.
Careful inspection and documentation will let you market it to the right owner and realize maximum amount of money.

In this market a (potentially) nice longhood probably hasn’t taken as much a price beating as a nice 911SC or Carrera.


There is a lot of satisfaction rebuilding this yourself.
It will forever be YOUR 911.

Again, WELCOME.

Best,
Grady

[spastrone]

Wow, I'm already overwhelmed by the support and encouragement I've received in these few posts...thanks very much for that.

Good point about other things that need to be gone through, Grady; I imagine that there is a comprehensive list here somewhere, but here's what I'm thinking:
Brakes - new pads, new rubber lines, complete system flush
Oil System - clean tank, replace all lines
Fuel - remove and clean tank, replace all rubber lines
Battery - replace both
Lubrication (Bearings, Joints, Linkages) ?
Electrical ?

Anything Else?

BTW, I have most of those books you mentioned, (brads911sc) among others that I love to read through. The repair manual I have is a Haynes 911 - 1965-1989. How's that compared to the Bently?

[brads911sc]

I do not use the haynes for anything major. Its often vague, lacks good diagrams, sometimes misses steps... Sometimes if the Bentley is unclear, I will use the haynes to help clarify. Once you see the bentley, you will see what I mean...

[Grady Clay]

spastrone,

While you are laying out all your stuff to get good images to post….

Here is a thread about posting images that may help:
How to post images (pictures) on Pelican



You can’t have too much information.
That said, there is not a prefect single source for Porsche technical information.
Probably Pelican Search is as close as you can get but it isn’t perfect and not as convenient as your own books & manuals.

Here are a few links that may help:

My Porsche Library - Do I have everything for fixing my 1972?

Personal Car Specific Manual

911 Workshop Manuals

Best non-factory manual for 1973.5 911T


I’ll encourage you to start your own ‘personal manual’.
Just the experience of searching, copying, editing and assembling the information will teach you a lot.

The good news is that you have a very simple car, engines and transmissions sitting in your garage.
This is not rocket science.
Mortals designed and built your car (some with a beer in one hand).
There isn’t anything you can’t do yourself or contract with someone that has specialized equipment.


You are correct about your priorities.

“Brakes - new pads, new rubber lines, complete system flush
Oil System - clean tank, replace all lines
Fuel - remove and clean tank, replace all rubber lines
Battery - replace both
Lubrication (Bearings, Joints, Linkages) ?
Electrical ?”

Most important will be to take your time and soak hardware in penetrant.
PB Blaster seems to be the consensus choice.
You will experience a high level of aggravation if you rush and break things that have been together for 40+ years.

One of the real benefits of DIY is you can STOP and ask a question on the Forum.
Good images are priceless.
That is far preferable to “Oh No!”


Brakes –
Take the pads out and cycle the pistons in the calipers (one pad/piston at a time).
Be very careful to not push a piston out of a caliper.
Aerosol silicone spray is the lubricant behind the piston dust seal.
A piece of wood about the thickness of a pad backing plate works well.
Replace the pads if out of spec too thin, otherwise sand the surface lightly and reinstall.
Make sure the pads float freely in the caliper before you reinstall the pins and spring.
Lightly sand the rotors.
Inspect for too thin and cracks.

Replace the rubber brake hoses with OEM rubber hoses.
Be careful to not damage the pipes.
It may take some PB Blaster between the pipe and ‘nut’ and down the nut threads.
When reassembling, add some grease between the nut and pipe, not inside the fluid system.
Make sure the bleeder valves open and seal correctly.

Almost certainly your brake master cylinder will fail when you get the 911 back in service.
It is much easier to replace it now.
If your master cylinder fails, there is no warning until you have ‘NO BRAKES’.
Been there. Not a good feeling.
Available from our host:
Pelican Parts - Product Information: 911-355-012-02-M4

There is lots of discussion about brake fluid brand but you just need new.

The most difficult part of replacing the master cylinder is reinstalling the two supply hoses and rubber grommets.
Remove the supply hoses and reservoir from the car and install the hoses in the master cylinder before installing.

While you are fussing with the master cylinder (MC), inspect your pedal assembly.
Check to see if there is any brake fluid there.
If there is an issue there, the pedal assembly is easy to remove while you are replacing the MC.
You will probably need to soak every piece of hardware in PB Blaster.

The pedal assembly has replacable plastic bushings.
These bushings are ‘brake fluid sensitive’ i.e. they swell-up when wet with brake fluid.
This is a good thing as that is the only indication of a leaking master cylinder.
The aftermarket bronze bushings will last almost forever but not provide this (useful) warning.


Oil System –
I would look inside the tank at the bottom fitting and drain plug.
Your little finger can do a ‘digital exam’.
You might rinse the tank in situ with some Stoddar*d solvent.
Make sure that there is nothing that can get into the engine oil system.
It may eventually be useful to remove the tank but there are risks that expensive parts may need to be replaced from being disturbed.
Leave it alone unless necessary.

You don’t need to replace oil lines unless they leak.

You may have aluminum nuts on the ends of the oil hoses/lines.
Be very careful to clean and grease the threads (both male & female).
These nuts are fragile.



Fuel system –
Yes, remove the tank for cleaning.
You will want to loosen the outlet fitting while the tank is still installed.
It is a bear to get loose with the tank out.
This fitting is a screen filter and needs to be cleaned.
Be prepared to replace it if it is damaged.
Use only the OE brass version and not the plastic 914 type.

Replace all the rubber flex hoses.
Our host has the correct hose.
Be sure to use the original Norma-Schellen (N-S) type hose clamps. The worm-screw type will damage the hose.
The larger ‘supply’ hose didn’t have clamps originally. You should install the correct size N-S clamps.
You will need new sealing rings at the fittings and a new gasket for the fuel level sender.

Your ’71 has the electric fuel pump at the rear, under the left end of the rear torsion bar tube.
It is a common mod to move the pump to the front on the front suspension cross member.
The 1970 had the pump mounted there and the pump was returned there in 1976.
Get a feel for what you will need to do this someday after the car is running.

Replace all the flex hoses all the way to the carburetors, including the little pieces between the carb inlets.
Do not reuse the original little ‘ferrules’ on the fuel line at the carbs.
Only use N-S type clamps.

Use a good (large) fuel filter just prior to the carbs.

Here is a good link:
Braided Fuel Hose for a 72T MFI
There are many more.



Suspension -
The suspension should not need much other than inspection for now.

Inspect the tie rod ends and ball joints for damaged boots.
‘Wiggle’ the joints. They should be free to move as intended and not otherwise.
Bounce the car and see if the shocks function.
‘Wiggle’ the front wheels side-to-side and confirm there is a very small bit of front wheel bearing play.
The rear should have no play.
Inspect the CV joint boots for damage.
What is the condition of the grease in the two ‘open’ CV joints?


Electrical –
High on the list will be that the alternator functions.
When ready to drive, check all the lights and turn signals.

There is a lot of discussion about batteries.
NEVER disconnect the battery from the car when the engine is running.
That will ‘fry’ the alternator and occasionally other.



Tires –
Your newly-finished 911 should not be driving on the 15+ year old tires.
Your first trip should be to the tire store.
Research now will find you the most suitable tire for the best price.
Tires make more difference to the handling of your 911 than anything else you can easily do.


OK … where are the pictures?

Best,
Grady

[spastrone]

Ok, here's a test photo to see if this works...

[spastrone]

And here's the issue...missing bolts and walking shafts.

[brads911sc]

that is easy to fix. Our host sells all the parts you will need. Might want to add the RSR seals while you are doing it...

[spastrone]

So, just get a new set of bolts, nuts, seals, and lock-tight? Speaking of lock-tight, is this white gloop the supposed to be the right stuff?


Some new plugs are in order, too...notice that the plugs have been out for this whole time (~15 years)...any issues there? This is one of my fundamental questions: given the amount of time that's past, should I take off the heads to check out the pistons and valves...and maybe install some case-savers...OR, just fix the rocker issue and fire it up!?

BTW, here's a pic of the whole engine:


And one of the interior:


And one of what I think to be the original color:

[Tom F2]

Olive! A lot of people on this board are going to be jealous of your original color. Looks like you have a great project there.

[spastrone]

Thanks.
When I first saw that color, I was repulsed. Then I started to warm up to it and THEN I saw my exact car in "unusual Olive" in Peter Morgan's "Original Porsche 911" book (on page 33), and I was convinced that it would be really cool to restore it someday to that color...especially since RED would be my last choice for a 911 that I would want to drive. Anyway, right now the focus is getting it running.

[spastrone]

I do actually need to know if there are any issues with the plugs being out for so long. Also, should I go ahead and take off the heads to check out the pistons, valves, etc. before buttoning it back up and prepping it for install?

[brads911sc]

Do everything Grady mentions above.

Many have commented that they put some marvel mystery oil in the cylinders, and get them moving by hand before using the starter.

Ill let the experts chime in. Doubt you would need to remove the heads.

Just bought a 1983 Targa SC that was stored for years.

Trying to wake a 1972 911T

Help With Porsche

[spastrone]

Ok, I'll read and research past posts more before asking more questions...except for this one...am I missing something or is there not a Zenith 40TIN Full Rebuild Kit for 1971 911 available via Pelican? Perhaps it's called something else...