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Assembling 1966 901/05 Engine- Phase VI- Post-Installation Nits and RMS Change

. . . resuming where we left off after the dyno. The engine ran great and didn't leak at all. When I got it in the car, however, I noticed a pretty bad leak coming from the flywheel seal. This was manifest by oil dripping out of the rectangular hole between the bellhousing and the case, and also out of the hole where the clutch fork emerges.

While no doubt partially caused by high oil pressure, a review of my pre-installation photos showed that I had installed the seal well below the outer surface of the case.



There is an inconclusive and not-very helpful debate on this forum about whether driving the seal in too far will cause the lip to block the oil return holes, preventing oil that comes over the side of the #1 thrust bearing from returning to the case. Later we'll see that this is absolutely the case, that if the seal is in too far, it can block the holes. In any event, much has been written about the nine-bolt cranks, this is the only RMS change I can find involving a six-bolt, so here we go.

Not wanting to leave anything to chance, I decided to bite the bullet and drop the engine to change the RMS. An hour after starting, the engine was on the ground and trans separated. (It's not quite Henry's 22 minute record, but it's sure easy to drop with a 1000 pound Hydraulic Lift Table instead of trying to balance the engine on blocks)

Evidence of the leak. Brand-new Shell Rotella T 15W-40, a fairly thick oil.



Not much oil on the bottom of the case, but still present.



With the flywheel off, you can see where the oil was leaking, around the RMS. If it were the case seam below, it wouldn't be up here.



Not only was it in too far, it was in crooked. This was using the "pound it in with a block of wood" method that is used to avoid using the Sir Tools P215 seal driver. 10.14mm depth on one side.

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Last edited by 304065; 09-18-2012 at 07:16 AM..
Old 09-18-2012, 06:14 AM
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. . . and 8.73mm depth on the other. That is the definition of crooked in my book.



With the seal removed you can clearly see the oil return holes, they are almost obscured by the thrust flange on the end of the crank, but they are definitely there. Contrast this with a 9 bolt crank in which the holes are clearly visible around the end of the crank.



Closeup of the oil return holes. You can see now that if the seal is pushed in all the way, it can block these holes. If oil goes over the thrust bearing and down through the radial slots in the bearing, it will pool up here and have nowhere to go if the seal is blocking the hole. High oil pressure doesn't help, but I'd rather have the holes open so they can do their job.



Another view of the end of the crank, all cleaned up, deburred and ready for the new seal.



A side note to all the guys who say, "I can re-use my flywheel bolts. These had been through TWO torque cycles to 110 Ft-lb, the updated factory spec. The first shot is a virgin bolt from the factory, to the same spec as the used ones. Note the length, 36.35mm.



Now here's a used bolt, note its length. 37.63mm. We're talking SERIOUS permanent elastic deformation here. I didn't measure the neck but I'm sure the bolt necked down quite a bit.

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Old 09-18-2012, 06:16 AM
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New Reinz flywheel seal ready to go in, garter spring shortened by a couple mm, three dabs of Bosch Distributor grease on the back (a Henry Schmidt trick, thanks!)



Sir Tools P215 seal installer. Given the time involved to R&R the engine, I am not taking any chances, I'm using the factory tool.



Factory tool bolts to the end of the crank with some monster hex bolts.



Seal goes around the end. I used Curil-T on the outside. The first version of the FWM tells you to use sealant, the later versions say just bang it in with the trumpet-shaped seal installer.



The cup goes on and threads into the end of the piece bolted to the crank. Then you tighten the bolt and the depth of the seal is set, not with respect to the case, but with respect to the crankshaft. This way you know it's square to the crank, as you can see the two halves of my case are of slightly different lengths, the cases aren't machined on the end.



It takes about three seconds and the job is finished.

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Old 09-18-2012, 06:17 AM
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With the seal installed, you can see how far away from the prior condition it sits. Interestingly, there's a lip on the flywheel to center it on the crank, this is a couple mm deep, and the seal sits about 5mm from the end of the crank. So theoretically there should be no contact between the flywheel and the face of the seal. The seal sits between the crank flange and the flywheel and just rides there.



Flywheel bolts back in place, $13 a pop. Another reason why I'm not going back in here. Old flywheel was taken to the wear limit by local machine shop. I gave him a copy of the page in the factory spec book, where it shows the service limits, instructing him to grind it and measure how much was left after resurfacing. So he ground it. . . TO THE SERVICE LIMIT! So if I had to take the flywheel off, a new one was going on. Note that the roll pins to locate the pressure plate were included with the new flywheel, presumably the assembly is balanced with them installed. Good, because their part number is not listed in the book anymore.



All done, ready to go back in. The hydraulic table was raised, OK for a short while, but no substitute for a real engine stand and P201.



In terms of time for the round trip, I started around 7:00 a.m. and the motor was running at noon. Engine drops are just not that difficult, although I can certainly see why the Factory cut a horsehoe-shaped hole in the bottom of the car for the shift coupler on the race cars. The shift coupler hanging up is the most complicated part of installing and removing the engine. On an SWB where it's easy to access everything, it's actually a fairly simple job.

* * * EPILOGUE * * *

Still a slight drip from the hole in the bellhousing! This is caused by excessively high oil pressure on startup. I think that both the relief piston and safety piston are sticking in their bores. It's not as much of a drip as before, but it's still there. I'll continue with the oil system in another thread.
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Last edited by 304065; 09-18-2012 at 07:22 AM..
Old 09-18-2012, 06:17 AM
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Hell of a write up! How and where did you find it necessary to 'debur and clean-up the end of the crank'?
Old 09-19-2012, 08:15 AM
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John, Great job on the update.

Question: With all your measuring and metrology... What was the final distance from the end of the crank to the seal? I.e. How much crank end was exposed. It would provide some reference between how deep the seal should be and how deep it was during the first installation.

thanks
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:01 AM
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Thanks gents.

I put a slight nick in the crank with a screwdriver removing the old seal. A few passes with some emery cloth and it was gone, nothing to worry about.

Jamie, I left the Mic in the drawer for this one, only used my digital caliper. I was concerned that the lip on the flywheel would push the seal in further, or would contact the seal when the engine was running, so I made this measurement. Turns out there is plenty of clearance, a couple mm, between the flywheel lip and the face of the seal when properly installed.

EDIT: From the end of the piece that attaches to the crank to the lip of the cup is 10mm. So that is the distance between end of crank and face of seal.

I expect that my drip problem is related to excessive oil pressure on startup. That will be the subject of a forthcoming thread. But if I go back in here, I'm going to sleeve the crank with an SWF "speedi-sleeve" and use an SWF seal. The sleeve is so thin that you don't even use an oversize seal, you use the same one (85x65x10 Reinz, Kaco) or in the case of SWF 85x65x8.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:25 AM
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What's the reason for the three dabs of grease on the back of the RMS?
Old 09-19-2012, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TT Oversteer View Post
What's the reason for the three dabs of grease on the back of the RMS?
It keeps the garter spring in its slot. I suppose when you slide the seal on, if the inner diameter sticks against the shaft, it can roll under and pop the garter spring off. This provides some resistance to that happening, while at the same time being easily dissolved by hot oil.

do you really need oil seal installation tools?
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Old 09-19-2012, 06:07 PM
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Interesting tip on the grease, thanks. I have seen some builders slide the RMS onto the crankshaft before dropping the crank into the case half. When the other case half is mated together the RMS is already located longitudinally and is squeezed between the case halves. With this method there is no need to drive or press the seal in. It looks like yours is a complete rebuild. Is there a reason you chose not to use this method of installing the RMS while assembling the case halves? Are there any negatives to this method?
Old 09-20-2012, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TT Oversteer View Post
Interesting tip on the grease, thanks. I have seen some builders slide the RMS onto the crankshaft before dropping the crank into the case half. When the other case half is mated together the RMS is already located longitudinally and is squeezed between the case halves. With this method there is no need to drive or press the seal in. It looks like yours is a complete rebuild. Is there a reason you chose not to use this method of installing the RMS while assembling the case halves? Are there any negatives to this method?
Yes, some put the seal on the crank before the case halves are assembled.

I chose to put it in later, because of the challenge (to me) of properly aligning the seal while the 574 clock was ticking. Priority #1 was to set the main bearing clearance, Priority #2 was to get a good oil seal on the case perimeter, and there was no Priority #3!

Also, given the precise depth to which the P215 sets the seal, I'm not sure you could approximate this installing the seal on the crank. Again, I'm sure plenty of guys install without the P215 and have no problems, but as an amateur, any time I can substitute a small amount of capital for experience I'll usually sign up . . .
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:12 PM
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John, did you consider using the ARP flywheel bolts (ARP 204-2802)?

They seem like an excellent deal at around $35 for a set vs Porsche pricing.

I understand that they are strictly for 2.2 engines but they are only about
1.5mm shorter than a 2.0 bolt. Surely a 2.0 isn't shaking either bolt loose,
or am I dead wrong again.

andy
Old 09-20-2012, 09:52 PM
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Andy, I never saw those until you mentioned them. I'll have to ask around as to whether anyone has used them on a 2,0. ARP says they are for 2,0-3,0 engines, but then they say 1970- so somebody at ARP needs a reminder that the 2,0 went out in 1970. . .

I can call ARP and ask about the length. Also will ask whether they are torque-to-yield type, my guess is that they are not, at 200K they probably stretch and then return to length.

Any pros watching, Steve, Henry, Mike? Have you guys used these?
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:44 PM
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seals

304065-- On the Dilivar disappointment thread ,read what Henry from Supertech says about Reinz seals. Scroll down about half way. Chris
Old 10-06-2012, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
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304065-- On the Dilivar disappointment thread ,read what Henry from Supertech says about Reinz seals. Scroll down about half way. Chris
I think he means with regard to the nine bolt cranks. In any event the only seals currently available for a six bolt crank are the Kaco and the Reinz. I bought one of each and the Reinz looked better so I went with it. I have looked into special ordering a SKF, but truthfully, the design of the seals irrespective of manufacturer is the same-- same profile, same garter spring, same method of sealing.

If this comes out again I'm sleeving the nose of the crank.
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:22 AM
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Wow - great write-up. I'm now beginning to think that I may have my RMS installed wrong...
Old 10-07-2012, 07:27 AM
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Double Epliogue

. . . resuming where we left off. . .

I "went" with the Victor Reinz. This was a whopper of a mistake.

Perhaps Victor Reinz believes that they can earn a few extra margin points by global sourcing these things-- in fact, they have come up with an ironclad formula for destroying customer goodwill. For in the installed condition, their seals, which are made from Silicone Rubber, look like this:



Lest there be any doubt that this seal was installed correctly I refer the reader to the above.

But it STILL leaked and the leak got WORSE over time. I would look under the car after a short trip and there would be a PUDDLE of Rotella-T! This in turn would prompt the use of the expression "Himmel-herrgott-sakrament-zefix halleluja-scheissklump-verreckts!*"

I knew what I had to do. I needed help from an expert.

An expert appeared in the form of the telephonic presence of Steve Weiner. "Let me get you one of the seals we use in the shop" he said, calmly.

A seal arrived via UPS Next Day Saturday Delivery. The seal showed clear signs of having flown in First Class all the way from Portland. It appeared composed, ready for duty- unlike the Reinz seal which was an embarrassed orange color. It looked like this:



Now of course, I had done an engine drop before. So this time it was a lot easier and faster, and I took the opportunity to fix a few "concours" items that were better done on the bench.

I attacked the project with what (for me) passes for Surgical Precision:



Shortly, the new one was ready to go:



And looked a LOT better when it was in. Viton, double sealing lip, the works.



I also took the opportunity to break from the tradition of using the Factory's Kamax M12 bolts for the flywheel-- at $13 a piece. . . in favor of the ARP bolts noted above.

There was some initial concern that these would be too long, and would need to be filed. However, they are about 3mm shorter.



These were installed, per ARP's instructions, with a stripe of 242 on the threads and their proprietary lubricant under the head, and torqued to 95 ft/lb. They carry over the XZN 'Tripple Square" head for reasons I don't quite know.

As they say in the British Car Manuals, "installation is the reverse of removal." And so it was.

Hours later, the car was started and . . . . drumroll please. . . NO LEAKS!.

A big shout out to Steve Weiner for his guidance and the best seal ever.



* Many of you will recognize this as the "Official Factory Swear." It was specified in an early version of the Workshop Manual. It is suitable for sheared studs, burned wires, broken fins, busted knuckles, spurting arterial wounds caused by safety wire (causing spurting arterial wounds is in fact the #1 purpose of safety wire, fastener safetying being a secondary use), and any other occurrence that will require a four hour procedure to correct something that happened in a microsecond.
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Old 05-19-2013, 06:11 PM
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Kaco and Elring are nice seals. The Elring is the famous brown and black seal that Wrightwood uses in their 9 bolt crankcase seal kit.

Just have to be careful using that Curil on the periphery of the seal. Sometimes it allows these radial seals to walk out. I like using a "temporary" lubricant. Swab a bit of water or spit on the OD of the seal and in it goes. Eventually dries up and leaves you with a nice tight grip between the seal and the case bore.
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Old 06-14-2013, 02:01 PM
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