The average cost of repair

[Sunroof]

I ran a thread recently about what has very suddenly happened to my 2.4 engine in my 1973.5T 911. I get blue smoke on start up and as the engine warms, continuous blue smoke from the exhaust and when at a stop, smoke billows up from the exhaust. The engine has lost no power and feels as tight as it always has been. I reset timing, points, have yet to look at the plugs and a friend has volunteered to help with a leak down test. The engine was totally rebuilt roughly 80-85K ago, never raced or driven very hard.

So, the question comes up........what can I expect to pay for a valve job? can the heads be taken off without removing the engine, if its worn valve guides?

Another question is the cost for a rebuild if rings are the cause. Can I save thousands in labor if I remove the engine myself? Do I really need a Porsche shop to rebuild this 2.4?

Their are few creative ways to save $$$$ these days on Porsche repairs, especially engine rebuilding, but I would love to find a way to since I am one step away from retirement.

Thanks
Bob

[Tippy]

Pulling the motor is not hard. You can do it with a basic floor jack like I always do. There are more ways to do it with tools like ATV jacks and other mechanisms.

You should buy a copy of Wayne's book. He details everything including costs like machine shop rates.

Great supplement to the Bentley manual I had.

Rates vary, but at least you can get an idea.

Last, send your heads to "cgarr", a member here. Support your tribe.

[Sunroof]

Thanks Tippy.
I have Wayne's 101 Projects book, which has been very useful and does have a section on engine removal, however, if his other book on re-building is more detailed then I am up for that. I question whether it might be cost effective to tear down the engine for rebuilding to save a few bucks as well. I could certainly remove the heads and send them out.

Any other thoughts or ideas?

Bob

[Tippy]

Pete Zimmerman created the 101 book you are referring to. Wayne, the owner of Pelican has the 'how to rebuild the 911 engine' book, and yes, it's super detailed in engine building.

He breaks it down, very detailed, worth every penny.

[Trackrash]

I'm no expert, but it does sound like rings to me. The issue will come down to the cylinders still being in spec? That motor has iron cylinders, so a simple de-glazing may not do the trick. I would hazard a guess that you will need to have the cylinders restored. But who knows, especially since it was previously "rebuilt", there are a number of variables and a tear down will reveal the problem.

That said when it comes to air cooled motors you generally are looking at new guides and pistons and cylinders. In your case, pun intended, there is a possibly that your cases may need work as well.

So, HBTDT, the best bang for the buck is for you to do all the dissasembly and re-assembly. Send out the components for repair by the experts.

On a positive note, if rebuilt right, that motor could outlive most owners.

[Alan L]

Over filled oil tank? As about the only possibility that would not require engine out, and teardown.
The engine out bit is the 'easy' bit - timewise - so you would not attempt much else without pulling the engine. There are a bunch of threads - the main thing is to get enough height in the rear to clear the engine when you slide it out. Removing the rear bumper helps if height is an issue.
A leakdown may be useful before you rip into it - either with engine out or in. If the P/Cs are OK, probably best left alone. Maybe just heads. Good luck.
Alan

[kav]

Try everything you can as suggested above before dropping the engine and tearing into it. Even if you did drop the engine, dismantle it, send out the offending parts to the machine shop and reassemble it all yourself the bill will not be trivial, ask me how I know! My issue was the valve guides, the rings were fine but I tore the whole engine down anyway and did all the 'while I'm in there jobs' too as the car had almost 200,000 miles on it. My heads alone were $1500 to be machined, that doesn't include all the gaskets, the specialty tools I had to buy to remove the camshaft sprockets, set the cam timing etc etc. It's an involved job but incredibly rewarding too.

If you plan on doing it yourself, do your research. Buy all the books etc. Start a thread here for additional help. Some very rough timeline / cost indicators:

Drop the engine, 1 day.
Engine strip to cylinder removal (then you'd know the issue), 1-2 days.
Package it all up for the machine shop, 1 day
Machine shop - more Porsche centric place takes longer but worth it - 1-3 months, budget $2000.
This gives you time to clean the underside of the car and replace what's needed, budget $500 in case you need new shocks or a brake overhaul or suspension bushings etc
Engine gaskets, sealants, oil, filters, specialty tools etc - budget $500
Engine reassembly - 2 weeks for a novice.
Engine install and plumbing connections - 2 days.
Engine break in etc, 1 day
Test drive and enjoy, priceless!

So you're looking at around 2 months and an estimated $3000 (could be a bit less, could be a bit more) if you do everything yourself.

I've really enjoyed doing mine, incredibly rewarding but it's been expensive and time consuming.

Hope his helps. Good luck! Pictures??

-Kav.

[Alan L]

That sounds like a good/realistic precis of what you are in for. The main thing is not to expect a quick result. Take your time. Especially during assembly. They are precision machines. But even during strip down -photo lots, label parts etc. take your time. Waynes book will get you there for the total job. Plus there will be heaps here rooting for you when you get frustrated/lost/depressed.
Then at the end when you finally fire it up and drive it you get a satisfaction that cannot be bought.
Look on it as an opportunity to get to know your engine up close and personal. First name terms.
You have a vehicle that justifies the effort and cost - count yourself lucky on that score.
Alan

[Sunroof]

Thanks everyone. I added a photo to show you the car as she sits today. A friend is going to help with a leak down test to see whats happening. The engine was rebuilt by one of the premiere mechanics in the Atlanta, GA area, Galen Bridges at a cost of 9K back in 1991 when a total restoration of the car was done (34K in receipts)! I would consider myself a fair home mechanic, but lacking in the skills to rebuild an engine let alone a transmission! Most probably I would solicit help from Porsche folks to help remove the engine and maybe even tear it down and pay them well for their assistance. I hear of costs over 22K if I were to drop the car off at a Porsche shop for a rebuild. WOW! Lets see what the leak down test shows and take it to the next step.

I will invest in Waynes book and see if indeed it has easy step by step procedures to follow. Being semi-retired makes it more challenging in finding cost effective ways to proceed. One thing is very clear; the 1973.5T 911 finally has its own "what its worth" line in the latest Excellence Evaluation Magazine. With a valuation of 70K (Good) to 100K (Excellent), the car has to be running.................

Bob

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by Tippy

Pete Zimmerman created the 101 book you are referring to. Wayne, the owner of Pelican has the 'how to rebuild the 911 engine' book, and yes, it's super detailed in engine building.

He breaks it down, very detailed, worth every penny.

Tippy,

Take a look at my “101 Projects for your Porsche 911” by Wayne Dempsey.



Tony

[Sunroof]

I have this book and it was one of the few that Wayne signed when it came out. The Bentley Manual does not work well with the early long hoods, so besides Wayne's Project Book, the next best reference is the Haynes Manual. I just ordered the engine rebuilding book and I expect you tube will have several videos on engine removal and teardown.

[Trackrash]

I used and still use the Haynes for my '71. For a basic rebuild it has a lot of good info, but nothing compared to Wayne's book.

Another book worth reading is Bruce Anderson's Porsche 911 Performance Handbook.

You should start a thread in this rebuild section. Lots of folks will be able to jump in and help virtually.

[cmcfaul]

start the car. Remove the oil cap. it it is pressurized...air coming out....your rings are bad. indicative of blow by thus pressurizing the case.

Chris

73 E

[timmy2]

Originally Posted by Trackrash

I used and still use the Haynes for my '71. For a basic rebuild it has a lot of good info, but nothing compared to Wayne's book.

Another book worth reading is Bruce Anderson's Porsche 911 Performance Handbook.

You should start a thread in the rebuild section. Lots of folks will be able to jump in and help virtually.

Um, this is the engine rebuilding forum!!

[Trakrat]

Originally Posted by kav

Drop the engine, 1 day.
Engine strip to cylinder removal (then you'd know the issue), 1-2 days.
Package it all up for the machine shop, 1 day
Machine shop - more Porsche centric place takes longer but worth it - 1-3 months, budget $2000.
This gives you time to clean the underside of the car and replace what's needed, budget $500 in case you need new shocks or a brake overhaul or suspension bushings etc
Engine gaskets, sealants, oil, filters, specialty tools etc - budget $500
Engine reassembly - 2 weeks for a novice.
Engine install and plumbing connections - 2 days.
Engine break in etc, 1 day
Test drive and enjoy, priceless!

So you're looking at around 2 months and an estimated $3000 (could be a bit less, could be a bit more) if you do everything yourself.


-Kav.

Your estimates are pretty low... sending parts to a machine shop, most likely a 2.4 would require additional work on the case (If the case is magnesium)

Tools and Books are probably about $1500 total (engine stand, measurement tools, metric tools, etc...)
cleaning supplies $250
machine shop $6000
shipping everything to machine shop $750
recommended replacement parts for engine $1500 (bearings, sensors, gaskets, chains, etc)

Add to that all the 'while the engine is out'... (fuel lines, better engine/trans mounts, better suspension components/shocks)

The easy part is taking everything apart.

[kav]

Originally Posted by Trakrat

Your estimates are pretty low... sending parts to a machine shop, most likely a 2.4 would require additional work on the case (If the case is magnesium)

Tools and Books are probably about $1500 total (engine stand, measurement tools, metric tools, etc...)
cleaning supplies $250
machine shop $6000
shipping everything to machine shop $750
recommended replacement parts for engine $1500 (bearings, sensors, gaskets, chains, etc)

Add to that all the 'while the engine is out'... (fuel lines, better engine/trans mounts, better suspension components/shocks)

The easy part is taking everything apart.

These estimates were only for a top end rebuild, not splitting the cases etc. Yes agreed it gets way more expensive and time consuming once you do a full engine rebuild! Believe me I know!

-Kav.

[CASair]

i'd carefully budget a set of new P&C since it's got 85k miles on the rebuild.

Blue smoke on decel is usually valve guides, blue smoke on accel is usually rings. USUALLY.

[florio]

I just redid my 2.4, and with replacing all the valves, seals, machining the heads, Nickasil on the cylinders, new rod bolts, rings (obviously), oil return tubes, and other little things came to 2200 Euros, not counting my cheap free labour. I made my own tools where needed and was careful shopping. I think it can be done for reasonable costs, but it all depends on what needs replacement. The best tool? Wayne's book!

[911 Rod]

Tearing down the engine is 80% cleaning. Do it yourself to save money and you know you will do a better job. Add a parts cleaning tanks and 2 cases of brake clean to your list.

[florio]

Originally Posted by 911 Rod

Tearing down the engine is 80% cleaning. Do it yourself to save money and you know you will do a better job. Add a parts cleaning tanks and 2 cases of brake clean to your list.

+1, it was fun and the joy of first start is unique. Visa and amex for the rest...