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Jamie,

From the photo, the COP's look like VW/Audi units to me. I agree, some datalogs are needed because you can not tell what is going on from just a dyno chart. In addition to possible ignition issues, without knowing AFR's, injector size, maybe he is running out of injector.
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1977 930 Slant, MS3 EFI, Carrera intake, Twin plug, Powerhaus headers, Magnaflow muffler, Garretson intercooler, GTX3071R
Old 01-16-2018, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dap930 View Post
maybe he is running out of injector.
There's a good point. 30lbs minimum for this setup
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Old 01-16-2018, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvporschepilot View Post
There's a good point. 30lbs minimum for this setup
Even a really bad tuner would notice if he bottoms out the injectors...

Fuel pressure going out? But if the tuner had an 02 sensor he would notice that.

It does look like the VW COP, I have those, I've hade one coil go slightly bad so it worked on idle and light throttle but was dead on full throttle.
Something funky is happening around peak torque. The torque just drops and then picks up and drop again. Ignition or wiring.
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Old 01-16-2018, 12:42 PM
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Verified you're getting full throttle?

Hey, start with the basics.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:46 PM
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Hello. First, none of these hot rod motors are not an oddball mix of parts. The only thing Porsche made were stock engines to pass emissions, and let your wife drive it to the grocery store in the rain safely . Even the race engines in 2 valve form from the factory were pretty conservative. So this is not your problem.

You need to check the basic set-up of the ignition system. Watch the ignition w a timing light through a complete run and see what is happening for starters. Your motor is down easily 60-75 ish HP from what it should be and the HP and Tqe curve swinging wildly indicate big woes. Look at the shape of any mildly cammed or even moderately cammed engine as your's and none make pk tqe then fall down 20 to get it back again, then fall again the same or more. This has nothing to do w cam, headers, port size, 85% thottle etc...
Your tuner does sound a bit over his head to me if you are being told to drive it and enjoy it ( w 160 hp like a 2.0 L E) as it is obviously sick and you could do alot more damage.

Who configured the motor,who made the wire harness, the tuner? Chk coil selection, and how it is set up, dwell times, are they smart coils, are they wires correctly? Can the ECU fire them directly or do you need an ignitor and if so was that selected properly, wired properly? Who also dyno's without AF data as none are present on your sheets? Or was there not another bung avail. as it was being used for data logging lambda? WHat do the data log look like on ignition timing and AF?

Start there and consider getting a new tuner who has used these exact components and is familiar w these cars, especially if all these answers are not readily available .

Kevin
GAS Motorsport
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Old 01-17-2018, 07:03 PM
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Got this dyno sheet today also here is ITB info. Headers are Georges euro 1 and 5/8. Muffler is M&K. believe port size is 39MM.

Here is the info on the EFI ITB

1 ECU AEM Infinity 508 1
2 MAP Sensor, IAT & CHT Sensors, O2 Sensor 1
3 Fuel Pressure Sensor 1
4 Ignition coils for Coil on Plug- Bosch + S plugs 6
5 Fuel Injectors upgraded/rebuilt Bosch 6
6 Wiring Harness conn, hardware, smooth Sheath 1
7 Wiring Harness Fabrication, includes relay/fuse center 1
8 Fuel Pressure Regulator 1
9 Fuel- 6AN fittings and ethanol hose- Black 1
10 Fuel Pump - may not need 1
12 Crank,Cam position sensor (EPM) and mount 1
13 PMO 50MM ITB's. new manifolds, linkage, air cleaners 1

Assume fuel pump is set up for carbs. May need higher pressure pump.
Do headers have O2 bung? yes
Need intake port size at head
Dyno tuning may not be needed. Call for discussion.





Design harness - order connectors/parts
Document existing EFI chassis wiring, clean up excess
Install Harness in car + chassis wiring
disassemble distributor, install cam, crank sensors
Install ITB's, sensors on engine
Fab hoses, mount fuel components
Load software - sync timing, tune to start/ idle engine


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Last edited by nippy; 01-18-2018 at 01:57 PM..
Old 01-18-2018, 01:42 PM
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ITBS AND EFI PARTS












Headers and muffler, you can see the exhaust leak on left bank, that was fixed at time of EFI conversion
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:54 PM
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I have a 3.6 with ITB's, EFI, Flow through exhaust and Motec
-- engine itself was completely stock.

From about 3000RPM to 7000RPM the torque curve was flat.
On a very conservative tune I pulled 255 to the wheels.

Your dyno chart doesn't look right.

Mike
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Old 01-18-2018, 02:41 PM
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There's clearly something wrong with this engine well beyond it being a mix and match of parts. What surprises me the most is that you say that the car feels ok when you drive it. There is a huge drop in torque at 4000 rpm and this should be felt as a clear drop in acceleration.

According to the torque plot, the car should feel more and more reluctant to accelerate as you approach 6000 rpm. Did it feel like this when driven after the dyno test?
Old 01-18-2018, 02:59 PM
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Could the Dyno be wrong?
Old 01-19-2018, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nippy View Post

8 Fuel Pressure Regulator 1
9 Fuel- 6AN fittings and ethanol hose- Black 1
10 Fuel Pump - may not need 1


Assume fuel pump is set up for carbs. May need higher pressure pump.

I don't understand, is your fuel pump and regulator set up for carburetors?
Carb fuel pressure should be around 6-8 psi, for EFI more like 45 psi. If you are at 6-8 it would be a miracle that it runs at all.

Again, even a half-assed tuner would check fuel pressure if there was a problem....
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Old 01-19-2018, 03:14 AM
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The intake manifolds are 42mm at the head side? Are the heads 3.0? Or even 3.2 heads? Is 42mm correct?

Todd
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Old 01-19-2018, 03:40 AM
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Any chance of wheel slippage on the drive roller? Or is this Dynapack a hub mounted?
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Old 01-19-2018, 03:51 AM
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How about the clutch set up, how old is that? I've seen it on my 996tt where the car was showing no power on dyno (450rwhp) due to slipping clutch and flywheel issue. Clutch was swapped and all resolved ( 700rwhp)
Old 01-19-2018, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnovak View Post
Any chance of wheel slippage on the drive roller? Or is this Dynapack a hub mounted?
Yep, happened to me. Clutch was slipping on the dyno that is. Power was all over the place.

Dynapak should be hub?
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Old 01-19-2018, 05:19 AM
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+1.....on the fuel pump "set up for carbs" .....check your fuel pressure. if you are truly using a fuel pump that is designed for use with carbs, it will not provide the pressure/flow required for EFI. ....Easy to check fuel pressure with the Rasant /AEM system and is a standard step in the setup of the system. Any chance that you were data-logging, while on the dyno?

regards,
al
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:53 AM
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Seeing an AFR trace for that dyno run might be interesting (assuming you were not data logging...if you have the full logs they would be even better).

That plot indicates AFR=12.3 @ 3788 rpm which tells me you don't have a carb fuel pump...likely very little would be getting through those injectors with the typical <10 psig carb pressure. Certainly not enough to make you super rich.
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:49 AM
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Do you think you could hear this?

Sorry, ignore. Posted on wrong spot
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:56 AM
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Subbed...Pull the muffler and air cleaners and see where it is. Seems like its choked. Jamie Novak is the man (continuous thanks for getting me rolling!!) follow his instructions and maybe find another tuner to look at it. Based on what you used (and aside from the ITBs being on the large side) I can't see that your physical setup is mismatched to a point of that little power.
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Old 01-19-2018, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al lkosmal View Post
+1.....on the fuel pump "set up for carbs" .....check your fuel pressure. if you are truly using a fuel pump that is designed for use with carbs, it will not provide the pressure/flow required for EFI. ....Easy to check fuel pressure with the Rasant /AEM system and is a standard step in the setup of the system. Any chance that you were data-logging, while on the dyno?

regards,
al
I'll throw one in there as well....make sure the vacuum hose to the fuel pressure regulator is hooked up (to your manifold, below one of the throttle butterflies I'm guessing with an ITB setup?); if it isn't you're going to be running out of fuel pressure with increased engine speed.

(even better, have you got a plot or can you run a diagnostic capture, of the fuel pressure whilst you're driving? Not familiar with AEM, I presume it'll allow you to capture live data? And FPR?)

ETA: As another thought, find out whether the AEM can auto-map itself. My old MBE ECU can be put into self calibration mode, used for coarse-grain trimming of the engine, which then gives you a suggested number of points on the 3D map which you can either accept outright, or use as a basis for trimming that area yourself, manually.

If you were able to get some logged data from when you're driving, and where it feels "ok" to you, I'm sure there's a few folk on here who could read something revealing into that data. (Sorry, I'm not one of them!)
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Old 01-19-2018, 01:40 PM
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