new owner intro

[krasuskyp]

Been trollin a bit here now that I've found you all existed - been on Pelican 20yrs via Porsche 930 board - but luddite me didn't realize there was a bike version? Figured I'd intro mesself before I invariably post seeking ignorant help on some such or other Talented enough to be dangerous, typical Fecal Touch unfortunately. Love the breadth & depth of knowledge here - great camaraderie.

First bike, just started riding last year and got this in May. Parent's wouldn't let me have a bike, then had kids - now they're off to college or about to and figured time right. I've long been a bike geek tho (geek in general really) - real combustion junkie... love anything and everything cool / fun basically.

64k, put 3k on this season. Jumped into it blindly (of course), no history other than local bike 2 prior owners before my bud who just had it to have in a barn of bikes. Then I surf here and learn all about spline failures etc. Whoops. Fme lol... @ 64k here's to hopin?

Chose this over his '07 Duc ST3 and '07 Buell Firebolt XBR12 (also coincidentally yellow?), the cheeky nuance of having 2 air cooled boxer's in the fleet tipped the scales, plus the inherent traits 'n charms of a boxer bike. City / full panniers, pillion cover (where source Dzus fasteners?), ABS, heated grips (that was another deal maker for me lol). Put a bunch of miles on each back to back, and here we are.

Here's some pics - anyone else rock this combo? I love feeling like a German Gendarmerie Last one is current status here in Sunny CT (I loathe winter). Torn down for full fluids change, front tire (gooodLAWD did the left side cord suuuuper early - reading here seems 'normal'? Sigh / lol / d'oh), headlight cataract surgery, plugs, maybe tensioner update, and to sort inop horn/clock.

Looking forward to learning from you all and to meeting anyone localish wanting to ride

[908/930]

Welcome to the party.

I was worried about the spline failure problem but figured WTF, fix if required. From what I have read there is a possibility the bikes with the problems could have been damaged in shipping something about how it was supported in the crate, do not know for sure.

[Jozef Schumann]

Originally Posted by krasuskyp

Been trollin a bit here now that I've found you all existed - been on Pelican 20yrs via Porsche 930 board - but luddite me didn't realize there was a bike version? Figured I'd intro mesself before I invariably post seeking ignorant help on some such or other Talented enough to be dangerous, typical Fecal Touch unfortunately. Love the breadth & depth of knowledge here - great camaraderie.

First bike, just started riding last year and got this in May. Parent's wouldn't let me have a bike, then had kids - now they're off to college or about to and figured time right. I've long been a bike geek tho (geek in general really) - real combustion junkie... love anything and everything cool / fun basically.

64k, put 3k on this season. Jumped into it blindly (of course), no history other than local bike 2 prior owners before my bud who just had it to have in a barn of bikes. Then I surf here and learn all about spline failures etc. Whoops. Fme lol... @ 64k here's to hopin?

Chose this over his '07 Duc ST3 and '07 Buell Firebolt XBR12 (also coincidentally yellow?), the cheeky nuance of having 2 air cooled boxer's in the fleet tipped the scales, plus the inherent traits 'n charms of a boxer bike. City / full panniers, pillion cover (where source Dzus fasteners?), ABS, heated grips (that was another deal maker for me lol). Put a bunch of miles on each back to back, and here we are.

Here's some pics - anyone else rock this combo? I love feeling like a German Gendarmerie Last one is current status here in Sunny CT (I loathe winter). Torn down for full fluids change, front tire (gooodLAWD did the left side cord suuuuper early - reading here seems 'normal'? Sigh / lol / d'oh), headlight cataract surgery, plugs, maybe tensioner update, and to sort inop horn/clock.

Looking forward to learning from you all and to meeting anyone localish wanting to ride

Nice....Welcome....

Your spline concerns are justified. Ask me how I know...

Everything you want to know along with more you'll never need to is right here.

J.S.

[Jozef Schumann]

Originally Posted by 908/930

Welcome to the party.

I was worried about the spline failure problem but figured WTF, fix if required. From what I have read there is a possibility the bikes with the problems could have been damaged in shipping something about how it was supported in the crate, do not know for sure.

Try as I may, I can't wrap my head around this one.

Source please.

J.S.

[908/930]

I found it, how correct is it?

Posted March 9, 2020
On 3/9/2020 at 10:27 AM, nrp said:
If I was in a meeting in the warranty & service dept of BMW & the topic is why all the spline failures on R1XXX bikes, This would be my first guess:

There is obviously an accuracy problem in the finished clutch bell housing. Why? Either the raw bell housing casting is being randomly distorted as it is clamped in the machining center (most certainly a numerically controlled outfit), or the raw casting is so flimsy that it distorts easily afterwards. Numerical machining centers are inherently very accurate - certainly sufficient for this application.

But I'm inclined to think that the design of the casting is inherently flimsy since there is a major cut out for the starter which interrupts the needed stiffness of the flange on the engine side.

Just maybe the manufacturer doesn't understand the problem. And as a company man (which I'm sure not!) - the cost of a wide ranging warranty fix would suggest we'd just tough it out & nobody in this room say anything.


Expand

Afternoon NRP

There has been talk (at least between some of us old BMW riders) that warped, bent front transmission housing cover (front transmission case housing) is/was causing the spline misalignment.

We haven't talked much about it lately but early on there seemed to be a LOT more reports of failed splines on U.S. 1150 bikes than the very few failed spline reports from European 1150 motorcycles.

A friend worked as a tec at a BMW dealer so would occasionally uncrate new 1150 BMW motorcycles, according to him the early 1150 motorcycles came crated with no front wheel & a wood support under the mid bike area. Supposedly later in the 1150 run the shipping crate supporting (chalking) was changed. He didn't uncrate a lot of motorcycles as he was a tec & they had personal for the uncrating job if available. I couldn't ever get him to fully explain the shipping crate support change as he didn't retain a vivid memory of crating arrangement.

In any case, at one time we were convinced that the possibility of a crate being dropped during shipment (into/out of a ships hold, during rail shipping, or from loading or unloading on trucks, or even harsh fork lift treatment could be bending the rather fragile front transmission housing cover due to the mid bike shipping crate supporting.

We never confirmed anything, just some engineering talk over a beer & trying to understand the mis-alignment issue.

Years ago I was at a BMW dealer & actually saw them drop a crated motorcycle out of a delivery truck when unloading it (I have no idea what model was in the crate but it sure wouldn't have done that thing any good)

There is a very high probability that any out of spec parts would have been identified & corrected pretty darn quickly by BMW as soon as warranty spline failure reports started tricking in. There is also a very good chance that BMW would have added a secondary parts inspection & verification process for the trans front housing parts once that area was identified as a problem area. (manufacturing wise, I can see a short run of out-of-spec parts but I can't see that run of bad parts continuing for years).

The thing that has me somewhat baffled is there were few to no 1100 5 speed spline failures & the 1100 5 speed bikes had close to the same starter opening & rather fragile transmission front cover. (something changed with the 1150 6 speed, but what?) -- crating, shipping, parts quality control, design deficiency, material change, ???????). Lots of speculation on the problem being short spline shaft engagement but that doesn't fit with all the 1150 6 speed bikes that go full duty life with no spline issues.

I put a new clutch in a 2003 1150RT last summer (had 97,000 miles on it & had same owner from new) & the splines looked like new. Even the clutch disk was OK on thickness & spline integrity, a leaky slave cylinder soaked the disk with brake fluid so that was the reason for the new clutch.

[Jozef Schumann]

Hmmmmm...

I recall interacting with NRP who is also a retired ME on this board long ago.

"There is obviously an accuracy problem in the finished clutch bell housing. Why? Either the raw bell housing casting is being randomly distorted as it is clamped in the machining center (most certainly a numerically controlled outfit), or the raw casting is so flimsy that it distorts easily afterwards. Numerical machining centers are inherently very accurate - certainly sufficient for this application.

But I'm inclined to think that the design of the casting is inherently flimsy since there is a major cut out for the starter which interrupts the needed stiffness of the flange on the engine side.

*Just maybe the manufacturer doesn't understand the problem. And as a company man (which I'm sure not!) - the cost of a wide ranging warranty fix would suggest we'd just tough it out & nobody in this room say anything."

as an ME, I wholeheartedly endorse this assessment save for:

*"Just maybe the manufacturer doesn't understand the problem."..

IMO, BMW very well understood the problem as well as the remedial issues involved. The BOD, beholden to stock/share holders primary goal is to protect the assets of the shareholders by ensuring the companies management acts on their behalf and that they get a good return on their investment (ROI) in the company. The financial losses compounded by very real liability issues resulted in, (I believe) - the latter portion of NRP's viable musing, i.e. "tough it out & nobody in this room say anything".. and then

... the warranty expires..

regardless of the root cause, the fact there are who-knows-how-many of these already have been, or yet to be repaired units out there serves as just cause for concern. As anyone can ascertain by my (and others) posts elsewhere, this is a serious problem which could end in disaster. I could have died. You could too.

Why not just nip-it-in-the-bud and fit an extended hub disc?

Here's what I offered a few years ago. My 'SuperScheibe' aka (SuperDisc) by S.P.P. (Schumann Performance Products) All sold long ago but similar units are now available from various sources.



Here, from Left to Right.
OEM Sachs, Siebenrock (oil resistant), Superscheibe.



My 'Superscheibe' hub depth



OEM hub depth



Just read through the numerous posts on this board and take note of how many have failed. I've done 6 personally. RBmann 5, Bill Swartzwelder (wswartzwel) at least a couple and then there's brentw1, who knows how many he's done - BUT, just between three of us that's at least FOURTEEN discs, not counting input shafts and bearings.

I do not even have to venture. Just employ some critical thought here. Collectively, us pelicans make up a small fraction of R259 owners. How many owners are either pre-occupied with other priorities, or - are not internet savvy and are completely unaware?

I would not be 'reaching' when, in my opinion - globally - it is quite conceivable there are thousands of machines on the brink.

decisions, decisions, decisions.


J.S.

[908/930]

Hey Krasuskup, really really like the paint colour of your bike. I'm tempted to buy some silver sides and paint them for mine.

Sorry for the thread highjack. For the clutch spline problem, we could/ should start another thread, I would like to measure one that has failed, hopefully not mine ever. This should be easy to measure and I do not understand why it has not been figured out where the problem is. I do not think the length of the hub is the problem, I think the engagement of spline was the same as always? The alignment would likely be the problem and I do not think the machining would be that far off, but have not measured one.

[Jozef Schumann]

Originally Posted by 908/930

I would like to measure one that has failed, hopefully not mine ever. This should be easy to measure and I do not understand why it has not been figured out where the problem is. I do not think the length of the hub is the problem, I think the engagement of spline was the same as always? The alignment would likely be the problem and I do not think the machining would be that far off, but have not measured one.

And BTW. Not a highjacked thread. The OP himself mentions "Then I surf here and learn all about spline failures etc."

He's simply learning more. Hopefully others viewing this thread are as well. If you read my initial thoughts as well as subsequent posts by others, it is pretty clear - now - an alignment issue does indeed exist - on afflicted units. I believe it was brentw1, or perhaps another pelican in the dealership loop, mentioned BMW sent out warranty replacement front transmission housings to replace the incorrectly machined units which failed. Replacement of only the housing, though labour intensive and costly was considerably less than a complete transmission assembly.

NRP was kind enough to actually offer re-locating dowels he machined to offset spec which allowed re-indexing of the transmission after dimensions were provided, obtained off of an referencing fixture with dial indicator he sent to owners which were tackling the service on their own. I highly suggest reading through the posts for details.

The extended hub disc obviously does not address the misalignment. What it does provide is a significant increase in spline engagement area resulting in an greatly extended useful service duty cycle. In many cases (such as my own) this translates to many tens of thousands of additional miles, whereas the OE spec disc failed at an odo reading of less than 20k.

Once again. At the sake of redundancy. There are threads (as well as videos) which detail how one goes about checking the lash at the input shaft, clutch hub union. Easily accessible and viewed once the starter is removed.

All that is required is reading through posts which any of many are willing to guide one to...

Finally, and this is key.

NOT every R259 is destined to fail.

On the contrary, many never will. At the very least, to err on the side of caution often pays huge dividends. Being an owner of more than a couple boxers. One, which struck fear in me the likes of which I have rarely experienced. I can only hope my fully documented and illustrated experiences are not taken lightly or looked at as unfounded hyperbole. How could they be?

With nary a second of thought. IF, I were to purchase another R259...The very first action upon rolling it into my garage and popping open a hefeweizen, is a clutch R&R. Period.

For you gamblers out there. Go ahead, toss your dice.

J.S.

[JimMoore]

Cool bike! Hey, if you're worried about the splines there's an easy check. Pull the starter and tie off your clutch lever. Look in the starter hole and find the clutch hub. You'll be able to see the clutch hub and a tiny sliver of input shaft. You can turn the clutch disk at the edge with a flat head screwdriver. The hub and shaft should rotate together. If they don't, you have a problem.

Good luck with it. At 64K you're probably OK, unless it's been changed once already.

Here's a video of a little different technique so you get the idea. He has a tiny bit of slop, which is OK. A bad one will have a LOT of slop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDjEvDgZlWU

[spacewrench]

Mandarin + Silver is a sweet combo...it's the one I wanted back in '99. I got (a better, IMO) yellow with the Honda Superhawk 996 because I couldn't afford the R1100S at the time, and I got a black R11S a few years ago. And y'know what, black BMWs look pretty good too!

The R11 is my favorite bike so far, even after my clutch splines went bad. I installed an extended hub clutch plate from Beemer Boneyard with an extended-spline shaft manufactured by a guy who goes by GSAddict in the Usual Places. So far so good; if the bike doesn't outlive me, then a pox on everybody associated.

[mntngrown]

New guy here. Jozef are you explaining that the failure can result in a lock up and rear wheel skid rather than a loss of power to the rear wheel?

[Jozef Schumann]

Originally Posted by mntngrown

New guy here. Jozef are you explaining that the failure can result in a lock up and rear wheel skid rather than a loss of power to the rear wheel?

Welcome, mntngrown.

The latter, not the prior. The clutch hub is the essential foremost power transfer link. No (or oscillating-eccentric-cycle-eroded) clutch hub splines results in the breach of power to everything aft. On afflicted bikes, this simply means it will inevitably eat its way into a phantom neutral on its own. The transmission is taken out of the equation as the very link to power it relies on is now gone.

J.S.

[krasuskyp]

Thanks much fer the welcome all! Valuable data regardless of threadjack (lol), so - thanks as well! Again @ 64k here's to hopin.

I'm def partial to the scheme, find mesself oft just gazing at it. Sure dig it alot. And getting to slap a classic tag on it rocks as well as always has folks befuddled that it's a 20yr old bike

908/930... think I've seen you on 930 board over the years? You don't have a 908, do you? Prob 2nd to say a P3/4 my alltime fave car. Here's mine :



Any pillion cover dzus fastner source suggestions?

[krasuskyp]

Originally Posted by spacewrench

Mandarin + Silver is a sweet combo...it's the one I wanted back in '99. I got (a better, IMO) yellow with the Honda Superhawk 996 because I couldn't afford the R1100S at the time, and I got a black R11S a few years ago. And y'know what, black BMWs look pretty good too!

Nice! The ST3 I was considering was black... damn that was a tougggggh cointoss!!!:



996 pics? My bud just got this '00 VFR... the metallic yellow is *stunnnnning!!!*:

[908/930]

Hi Paul, No I do not have a Porsche 908, I wish. 908 is the paint code for my Grand Prix white 930.

Are those 18" rims on your 930? Looks great.

If not sure about the spline condition pull the starter off and place in gear and tie the clutch lever in and see how far you can rotate the clutch disk, I checked mine the other day and it likely needs a new shaft. I intended to replace the clutch this year anyways, 130000km (80k miles). I checked compression a couple of weeks ago and up near 200psi, I was quite surprised it was that high.

[Jozef Schumann]

Originally Posted by krasuskyp

Any pillion cover dzus fastner source suggestions?

If the complete 'kit' is required which includes the receiver as well as the 'locking pin' you'll need 2 each of:

52 53 7 652 853

If it is only the fastener (locking pin).

52 53 7 651 289

Any BMW moto dealership can get them if they're not in stock.

J.S.

[spacewrench]

Originally Posted by krasuskyp

the metallic yellow is *stunnnnning!!!*:

Yeah, Honda's yellow from around that time was beautiful. I like the "school bus" aesthetic of the Goldwing from then, too (and that bike was reputed to handle well -- didn't they have Nicky Hayden ride one a bit?)

[krasuskyp]

Thanks Jozef - $13ea... crykie / lol

Originally Posted by 908/930

Hi Paul, No I do not have a Porsche 908, I wish. 908 is the paint code for my Grand Prix white 930.

Are those 18" rims on your 930? Looks great.

Ah! Would never have put that together. Cool!

Yes, 18x9&11 Fikse Profil 5's... 18's tend to look goofy on 930s unless in conjunction w/ a front valance of some sort to tie it together and def lowered (I'm on coilovers). The grip from 255/295s is astounding, and 16" tire choice today blowz sooooo

Is it spring yet? Winter blowz... looking forward to riding season already

[krasuskyp]

any thoughts on the tire wear? Cords ftl, was keeping eye on it but wore thru quicklike (fender is crooked as I'd removed screws just prior):



Read a bit here / elsewhere said to be 'normal' due to crown of road and riding on right of right side of road, then the boxer & telelever effects... I def feel the bike lean left if I go no hands coasting...

or should I be chasing alignment w/ strings & a jig? 8 /

TIA gentz!

[ckcarr]

You're looking at one of the most expensive OEM BMW parts to replace if you had to... Those mudguards go for a ridiculous $824 if you were crazy enough to buy one from a dealer...