what am i doing wrong?

[dabrow]

I've been riding for about 10 years now but really got into "sport "riding when i got the S 6 month's ago.My problem is that everytime i practice cornering ,as my lean angle increases to a certain point i feel like the tires are losing grip and i stand the bike up.I know i'm nowhere near the limits of the bike, i haven't dragged anything hard yet, and still have about 3/8 " untouched on the outside of the rear tire.I set my entry speed,lean the bike and stay on the throttle thru the turn, but i still feel like i'm losing grip long before i should.I'm running 36/38 tire pressure.I know what i really need is a track day and some professional instruction,just can't get away from work and there aren't many tracks near Philly.Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[shovelstrokeed]

There are way too many things you could be doing wrong to give you any useful answer. Spend the time and money to attend one of the riding schools available. I favor Code but it doesn't really matter for your first school which.

Trained instructors can see more in 5 minutes of watching you ride than a year of advise from firends.

Some general things to work on.

Let go of the damn bars. Chances are you are too stiff on the bars and gripping too hard. Both can cause unwanted inputs to the bars causing the bike to feel nervous.

Learn how to sit properly on the machine. Balls of feet on pegs, butt towards the rear, bent at the hips, not the waist, back relatively straight with the head erect, arms loose on the bars and bent at the elbows. If you can't get any or all of this, you need to modify the bike or yourself until you can. No meaningful control avalable any other way.

Get your weight right. You need not hang your butt off the motorcycle or get a knee down to acheive good weight control. In fact, the knee is only down on racers as a lean angle sensor. It is not an outrigger nor is its primary purpose weight shfit. You carry most of your mass in your upper torso and that is what you need to shift inside, forward and down to help with cornering. Try shifting the torso, smoothly, inside as you turn in for the corner. If you are sitting on the bike correctly, you won't need to use the bars for this, it can all be done with the muscles of the torso.

The point of all of the above is to lessen the lean of the bike in the turn at the same speed via shifting the center of mass inwards. This allows the suspension to work better due to the more vertical angle, the tire to acheive more traction due to the change in the contact position, and the rider to help avoid the panic reaction you are getting.

The fellows over on the BMWRT board are running seminars on the stuff I just discussed called Riding Smart. Small groups out on the streets with instructors and video re-enforcement. I have participated and it greatly improved my riding. There is one coming up in Georga and another in the NorthEast shortly. You might wish to get involved. There are no fees involved other than motel and travel expenses. You should have good tires fitted.

[Bob Hancock]

trackdays. Other than the techniques folks use, a trackday will do more for your confidence in the corner than anything. As street riders, we should ride with way too much tire reserve in order to be able to avoid hazards that will always pop up. This isn't called chicken...this is called smart. But at a trackday you will see the same corner over and over and with no surprises, and if you are at a school, instructors will pull you over and give you tips on what you are doing right or wrong. You will more than likely come off your second session for the day with your tires chewed to the edges and peeling little balls of rubber off with your fingers.
I try to do 2 trackdays a year...just to remember what it's like to use all the tire. The rest of the time on the road I let the hero's run hard and deal with their own consequences.
Bottomline....if you are serious about learning to use all the tire and ride fast you will find time to attend trackdays....it's that important.
fwiw,

[roger albert]

Man,

Can't improve on Bob's excellent and thorough advice.
It is EXACTLY the way to go. On the street, it helps to find a big long corner (180 degree or later loopback) that is wide and out in the middle of nowhere, where you are leaned over for a looong time and have time to loosen and tighten your line a bit. Go through it at a normal comfortable pace, with relaxed bar pressure. I wouldn't even worry about shiffting weight just yet, since it is the feel you need, not a reduced lean angle. Do this over and over til it's very comfortable.

Then go through it just a couple mph quicker and repeat as needed until it is comfortable., then quicken, and repeat... ... ...

It is so much easier to learn that on a long corner (easier still on track than street) where you have time to play and adjust, than a corner around 90 degrees where you are in, apex, and out, and either get it right or wrong (with wrong having a bad result) which is what is scaring you.

A big corner gives you a chance to experiment and do it better or more poorly, with out getting it perfect, or run-off-the-road wrong.

You'll get there and get over your fear. We all do it at our own pace. I'm personally struggling with being relaxed while hung off on right corners on the track. I'm increasingly comfortable with big lean and hangoff (thus less lean that previously) on the left, but am frankly miserable on the right. I just have much less feel there. No good reason, it's just there, and I have to work on it.

Reread my advice one, and Bob and Ed's better and more thorough advice about 3 times.

I'd echo Ed's admiration for the Code school, and his comment that it doesn't matter for the first one. I'd elaborate and say it's not a good value for your first school. SO much is new on your first school that you can't possibly take it all in, so do that on the cheap, and save Code or similar for a 2nd through 5th or some such. You'll love it and get a lot out of it.

Oh yeah, I'd ditto the 3/8" of unused tire is not a bad thing on the street too. Super good advice, imo. You need a lot of RESERVE. Maybe after you get comfortable on the track and have a big safety envelope, you can use more on the street, but the track is a much better place to learn it.

My personal experience is that there were a couple quick guys in our group who I can't touch on the street. On the track, where I KNOW what is coming up, and am more confident, I now run very close to the same pace (<<2 seconds slower on a large 2.8ish mile lap) even though I'm running half as much HP.
I still can't come close on the street. I leave that to the heros too.

Good luck, and have fun

[roger albert]

Also, if you can make the bike turn more easily (shorter torque arm etc) then the turns will happen with less effort, and thus more concentration left over for what is happening and needs to be done. i.e. remove some of the physicality allows more focus on the mental. Helped me anyway. Plus, it feels good.

[dabrow]

thanks for all the good advice guys.Up until a few years ago all my skills were concentrated on riding on city streets and avoiding the idiots in cars, which i got pretty good at.After moving to the suburbs and having acces to some really nice country roads, i'm just now realizing how much i have to learn about sport riding. I've taken both the beginner and experienced MSF courses, now i really need to find the time for a track day.

[ckcarr]

A few of the books in the home library for reading or browsing chapters you're interested in doesn't hurt either. Especially since they can be had cheap from Overstock or Amazon.

Just like any sport or profession its the triple enforcement of study (books), instruction (track), and application of skills (road).

SOME BOOKS:

Proficient Motorcycling - Hough
More Proficient Motorcycling - Hough
Sport Riding Techniques - Ienatsch
A Twist of the Wrist - Code
A Twist of the Wrist II - Code

[Steve Carlton]

The factory recommended tire pressure is 31.9 fr, 36.3 rear. Try that, and if your tires are already worn, things can feel squirrelly. When my front tire gets worn disproportionately on the sides, I lose a lot of confidence leaned over.

This book is highly regarded:

[ckcarr]

Can someone tell me where to get one of those tire gauges that will show me precisely 31.9 fr, 36.3 rear? And what temperature please?

[Moybin]

Originally posted by ckcarr
Can someone tell me where to get one of those tire gauges that will show me precisely 31.9 fr, 36.3 rear? And what temperature please?

How about certification of calibration? Tenths of a pound pressure are feel good kinds of info. NASCAR gooks tune tires to those levels (they claim) but they also have hundreds of hours of experience doing it. Worthless info for the street rider/weekend tracker.

More realistic to keep good notes on tire pressures and shock settings, air temperatures and road conditions. Otherwise, you are just "diddling" with the knobs and have no idea what did what.

[roger albert]

Funny man CK

I wouldn't recommend more than 34.7 if I were trying to practice leaning.

The Ienatsch book is excellent.
I love Code's class, but had trouble pulling much out of the books prior to trying it on the track. Then I revised my opinon of the Code books upwards. Some people love them right off the bat. Hough is too dry for me (rather read an engineering text or physics constant tables) but it's actually quite good.

Right on on the triple attack.

[Steve Carlton]

Originally posted by ckcarr
Can someone tell me where to get one of those tire gauges that will show me precisely 31.9 fr, 36.3 rear? And what temperature please?

You could get one of these, Mr. Smarty Pants! Official BMW gauge measures official BMW air pressure. Bleed down the the correct tenth (use interpolation), per factory recommendation...





Notice stainless steel braided line, no extra charge!

I just quoted the owner's manual to be accurate and avoid being "corrected," as is typical. Looks like those numbers are conversions of 2.2 and 2.5 bar.

Since PV = nRT, one would assume the pressure should be adjusted according to each ambient temperature. As "T" increases, "n" must decrease and you push the bleeder button. If "T" goes down, the BMW goes down to the gas station for more "n."

[Moybin]

Steve

in the equation PV = nRT, the "n" is a conversion constant, it doesn't change.

That's a nice gage, stainless braid and all, but it's still not calibrated. What about altitude compensation (like baking) for guys like ckcarr and our Colorado brethren? That gage reading is a comparison to the local atmospheric pressure, not to an absolute pressure. Of course 36 psi "gage" read at sea level should provide the same amount of internal force as 36 psi "gage" at 5000 feet altitude. But do we really know that for fact?

[Rattus]

Those books CKCARR lists are in my library and I think they're great. Especially the Sport Riding Techniques book by Ienatsch. Perhaps a different brand of tyre and really making sure you load the inside peg could help?

PS - I gotta get me a guage like that one pictured above!!

[Steve Carlton]

Originally posted by Moybin
Steve

in the equation PV = nRT, the "n" is a conversion constant, it doesn't change.

That's a nice gage, stainless braid and all, but it's still not calibrated. What about altitude compensation (like baking) for guys like ckcarr and our Colorado brethren? That gage reading is a comparison to the local atmospheric pressure, not to an absolute pressure. Of course 36 psi "gage" read at sea level should provide the same amount of internal force as 36 psi "gage" at 5000 feet altitude. But do we really know that for fact?

"n" is the number of molecules, in moles. "R" is the constant conversion factor.

I would think you would want the pressure to be based on local atmospheric, no? You'd want the pressure relative to the pressure outside the tire.

ck don't need no stinkeeng guages. He can kick a tire and know the pressure to the nearest lb!

[wswartzwel]

ck don't need no stinkeeng guages. He can kick a tire and know the pressure to the nearest lb! [/B]

He keeps his guage in his fanny pack!!!
Here he is looking for it to adjust his tires, because we were at 8240ft elevation... and he said his tires were set for 4200ft...

[Steve Carlton]

He didn't adjust them every 200 feet??? What's in the backpack?

[wswartzwel]

Originally posted by Steve Carlton
He didn't adjust them every 200 feet??? What's in the backpack?

You hang out at bmwforums.net enough to know he keeps one of these in the backpack!!!

[Steve Carlton]

Got it. For the way back down...

[RoLoo]

Originally posted by Steve Carlton
Official BMW gauge measures official BMW air pressure

...where can I get official BMW air...??

Ron.