Pub Argument: Can you change the direction of bike without using the bars.

[wswartzwel]

from your Avatar you appear to be standing the wrong wheel

[roger albert]

> My sense is that the trick bike has an extra fixed handlebar that you hold for training purposes but that the wheel has to pivot normally. Anybody know?

That is correct.

[bikerfish1100]

Originally Posted by ckcarr

The key is the word "Meaningful."

I suggest opening up your copy (which I know all of you have) of Nick Ieanatsch's "Sport Riding Techniques" to page 35 and studying what is discussed in this chapter.

Yes, you can make casual corrections using only body english and/or your legs grasping the tank tightly while loping down a sweeping country road. But you cannot make useful, aggressive or defensive, rapid cornering adjustments or turns without the handlebars. Period.

ding ding ding! anotha winnah!! give that man a seegar!

[Peter Parts]

Originally Posted by ckcarr

The key is the word "Meaningful."

snip
Yes, you can make casual corrections using only body english and/or your legs grasping the tank tightly while loping down a sweeping country road. But you cannot make useful, aggressive or defensive, rapid cornering adjustments or turns without the handlebars. Period.

Not the way I understand it. You can't do - any - steering without moving the wheel. So when you are riding hands-free, your body shift causes the bars/wheel to turn.

Body adjustments steer the wheel and at any speed - that's how the turning works. During ordinary riding, your body helps lean the bike faster into the geometry "predicted" by the way you've turned the wheel and the way the contact patch is scuffing. So normally, you move the bars first or simultaneously with body movements. When hands-free, your body moves first and the bars follow.

There's no speed at which your body movement doesn't have some effect. Provided you have some kind of throttle grip stabilizer (you know what I mean, so I wont mention it again here), you can take both hands off the bars and meander just fine down a dull road at any speed I've had the nerve to try it at providing I do not get too much upsetting wind and still have my eyes open (maybe 95 mph, can't say). Even elderly riders like me can take various curves (depending on the speed, sharpness, police surveillance, etc.) hands-free... and still keep their underwear dry.

Thanks for confirmation of my theory about the bars, Roger.

Personal note. Like with hot-shots on bicycles, one of the fun things to do on a bike - esp. when you tour or just out for a scoot - is to take both hands off the bars and steer with your body. The engagement of your body in biking is a key part of the zen of riding. It greatly saddens me (a) that the boxers like the R1100S aren't balanced to scoot straight down the road (without adding 22 lbs to the left saddlebag) and (b) the throttle can't be set to stay put hands-free. If you can't meet those two conditions, you are not getting the full joy of riding. What if your horse needed constant urging to continue moving and it veered to the right if you didn't rein it otherwise?

[DeltaNu1142]

Originally Posted by Peter Parts

Not the way I understand it. You can't do - any - steering without moving the wheel.

That's how I read it as well. I don't think there's any argument that "useful" steering can't be achieved just by shifting your weight; but limited steering is absolutely possible.

Originally Posted by Peter Parts

Personal note. Like with hot-shots on bicycles, one of the fun things to do on a bike - esp. when you tour or just out for a scoot - is to take both hands off the bars and steer with your body. The engagement of your body in biking is a key part of the zen of riding. It greatly saddens me (a) that the boxers like the R1100S aren't balanced to scoot straight down the road (without adding 22 lbs to the left saddlebag) and (b) the throttle can't be set to stay put hands-free. If you can't meet those two conditions, you are not getting the full joy of riding. What if your horse needed constant urging to continue moving and it veered to the right if you didn't rein it otherwise?

1 out of 2 ain't bad. With the Throttlemeister or some other friction/counterspring contraption and system case mounting brackets, hands-free riding is ultra-comfortable on the 11S.

[Effervescent]

I done it. For miles.

Cruise control on, 40 MPH, hands out like you are being hung on a cross, using the wind by bringing one hand in to your chest with the other in the wind...leaning and pushing bike with hips and legs.

Easy as pie. Next question?

-Eff

[varmint]

get going from the top of the hill. take your hands off the bars. lean left, and the biike drifts left. lean right, and the bike drifts right.

have gone miles on rural country highways never touching the bars on my old barge like victory.

[Peter Parts]

Yes, we all agree you can steer at least some curves without touching the bars and at any speed. Trick riders can stand on the seat and steer, or at least continue to go straight which is almost the same thing.

The question is: if you could lock the steering in position (as you could do with ancient friction steering "dampers"), could you steer curves by body alone that way?

I don't think so, as I said before. But I'm not certain because the factors that lead to steering are so complicated. And the bars move so little when you steer, I don't think you could tell whether they are moving or not in response to body movement just by eyeball.

[John Lyon]

Semantics is messing up this conversation ("using" the handlebars?). When you ride with no hands, you're using body english to tip the bike and in turn, move the handlebars slightly. If the handlebars were locked into place pointing straight ahead, there would be no turning. Keith Code or somebody tested it and proved it, as I recall.

[wswartzwel]

???? I had the impression that the turning of the bike was caused by the tapered profile of the tire.

lay a plastic cup on its side and give it a push... it goes in a circle.

A body in motion tends to stay in motion until a force is applied to cause change.. (inertia..)
Push the handlebar and try to change the direction of the front gyroscope (front wheel) and it causes the bike to lean over and run on the tapered part of the tires... now the bike goes in a circle... where it wants to stay now.... until more force is applied to the front gyroscope..to lean it further or to the other side. But force has to be applied to the wheel to disrupt the gyroscopic effects of the wheels. Jumping around on the bike is not going to do much in that regard... stunters do it al the time.... BTW keeping it going straight is not defined as steering. Any input by leaning is so little that it would not be wise to saw the bars off your bike. Ever wonder why companies make top clamps to put superbike bars on instead of clip-ons???