Thousand Oaks shooting

[A930Rocket]

Maybe this was covered, but I read there were six off duty cops in the bar. Were they armed? Did the rush the perp? Why do we not hear about the off duty cops that were there and what they did or didn’t do, but the sheriff that came after it started and was shot?

Maybe it’s just the size of the building and the number of people in there?

I’m just trying to figure out the timeline, what happened and why they weren’t effective.

[daepp]

Originally Posted by flipper35

Somewhere I read a story on that statistic where it is close to 100% where shootings were stopped before there were multiple deaths when a CCW was present when it started. Give me a few to find it.

"His conclusion is that shall issue laws, which allow citizens to carry concealed weapons, steadily decrease violent crime. He explains that this result makes sense because criminals are deterred by the risk of attacking an armed victim. As more citizens arm themselves, the danger to criminals increases."

[GH85Carrera]

A case recently in Oklahoma City had a gunman walk into a restaurant and start shooting. He shout some young girl and her mom. And he was going to shoot more. Two (2) different men that had never met went running back to different cars, got their guns and shot the bad guy. Stopped a mass shooting in short order. Two heros.

[Tobra]

First I heard that story Glen, maybe it never got beyond local news story.

If you are not prescribed anti depressants, I suspect it is less likely you start out depressed. I don't know what psych meds they prescribe to suppress the urge to go out and murder people, probably a variety of them.

As I understand it, the off duty guys were trying to get people out of there, if they were in a bar, there would be a good chance they were not carrying.

[Arizona_928]

It's a drop in the bucket of overall deaths.
The fact it happened here is what appeals to Americans. What about the Russian school shooting last month? if it was 12 people who died from some contagion, would it even still make the news?

There's still people in the world that die from lack of access to clean water. And it's a hell of a lot more people then die in gun violence. Yet here we are a country divided on the second amendment.

And those that say PTSD caused him to do this. That's bull****. PTSD doesn't cause one to be homicidal killer.

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by Craig T

People on anti-depressants kill themselves at more then twice the rate of people not on anti-depressants.

The *right* antidepressant does nasty things to a person.
The *wrong* one does REALLY nasty things.

When the fog gets cleared away, especially after an extended period of being in the fog, the world is REALLY scary. It's very hard to get your mind to deal with it. Everything is very sharp, and very fast, and very loud.

I think that's why we see so many 16-20 year olds going nuts while on pills. They've been in the fog for so long before, and as kids, they're used to the fog. You put them on pills, and they now have to deal with this electrically clear, hyper-sensory world that they've never had to deal with. Adults go on pills so they can go BACK to that clear world, to work and be with family and such. Kids are not prepared for it, and it scares the hell out of them.

[berettafan]

Why is it reversed between kids and adults pazuzu?

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by berettafan

Why is it reversed between kids and adults pazuzu?

As an example (and this is from my personal experiences, not my medical degree, which I don't have )

Adult get depression at age 30 (lets say). They spent their formative years seeing and living in the real world, they know how it is (nasty and scary and such). They're used to the general problems of life. Then, something comes along, they get depressed. It's like a literal fog around you. All of your senses, needs, feelings, etc are softened, like being catatonic.
So, Mr. or Mrs. Adult doesn't like this. It prevents them from having a spouse, hobbies, income, drinking beer, having sex, all of those things that make the world tolerable. So, Mr(s) Adult takes pills to wash away the fog, knowing that the world might be scary and nasty, but there are enough things in it to make it worth living in.


Teen gets depression at age 13. They never had to deal with the scary world, since kids are insulated from it. So, the fog comes, and it's comforting, not scary. Teens revel in it, depression isn't a stigma at that age, and it doesn't prevent them from having the normal crazy teenage life. Now, at age 17, after a few years of being in this fog, some adult gives them pills, and the fog is wiped away. Suddenly, they are in a VERY MESSED UP WORLD that they've never had to really deal with before. The clear world doesn't give them things to do like the adult, it's just scary and new and out of their control.


They know that kids react differently than adults to antidepressant. Kids go more crazy and kill themselves, adults don't. Depressed kids are just mopey and depressed, it's fashionable. Kids on pills are manic, unpredictable, scared, violent and suicidal. There has to be a reason, and I think it's how we interact with the world, not some hormone thing.

[Tobra]

It is because there brain is not developed yet. Kids on psychoactive drugs is a huge industry, makes me sick to think about it.

[tabs]

Ehhhhh...


Your brain is wired a certain way, it creates a chemistry based up that wiring.

Add in psychotropic drugs to change the chemistry...eventually the wiring in your brain gets used to it and changes (especially when you are younger and your brain wiring is still forming).

Take you off the drug and your brain (mood) chemistry reverts back..slamming your mood up against the wall...

Taking drugs is the medical insurance CHEAP way, it alleviates symptoms but does nothing to get at causation. Take away the drugs and causation is still there, and your brain gets dependent on those drugs to maintain chemistry...then watch the fk out...

The ONLY PROVEN SOLUTION is COGNITIVE THERAPY (neural plasticity) and that takes time, will and a bunch of MONEY...which insurance companies WILL NOT PAY FOR...So you had better have deep pockets...Otherwise unless you get real lucky you are gona remain fked up.

And guess what EVERYBODY is fked up to one degree or another...


The old saying in poker is that if you can not tell who the chumps are at the table you are the chump...

[onewhippedpuppy]

Actually some good and interesting conversation here. My only exposure to psycoactive drugs and kids is that some dried up old @#$% of a preschool teacher tried to tell me that my youngest son had ADHD when he was 4, I almost punched her in the mouth. Instead we changed schools and never had another issue. Lots of teachers and parents want kids that are walking around in the fog, much easier and less time consuming to deal with them. Sadly that also leads to lots of adults who use drugs to deal with their issues. When the drugs don't work, or they quit taking the drugs, bad things seem to happen.

[Jims5543]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Actually some good and interesting conversation here. My only exposure to psycoactive drugs and kids is that some dried up old @#$% of a preschool teacher tried to tell me that my youngest son had ADHD when he was 4, I almost punched her in the mouth. Instead we changed schools and never had another issue. Lots of teachers and parents want kids that are walking around in the fog, much easier and less time consuming to deal with them. Sadly that also leads to lots of adults who use drugs to deal with their issues. When the drugs don't work, or they quit taking the drugs, bad things seem to happen.

We had a doctor tell us the same thing when our son was 6 years old.

He suggested right off the bat the narcotic patch, a nice quick band aid for the problem.

My wife said hell no and began to research for weeks. She discovered a technique being used in Italy where they treat the problem, not the symptom. They discovered that they could correct the problem via amino supplements.

This required a trip 70 miles away to the only doctor we could find that was experienced in this treatment. Full blood work, urine analysis physical etc..

Then they came up with an initial treatment, something like 25 pills a day broken up into 3 doses a day.

More urine tests, more adjustments, more tests adjustments and on and on.

It took us about 4 months to get him balanced out. He went from struggling to concentrate in class to good focus, laser focus? No but able to function enough to learn and excel.

Fast forward 8 years and he has been weened off the amino's and functions perfectly fine now. Straight A's in school and working 1-2 grade levels ahead in Math and Science.

Was it fast? No.

Was it cheap? Hell no! Doctor visits and testing was expensive and the monthly cost of the amino's was in the $400 range when he was max dose, $200 range when he was leveled off.

Would we do it the same way again? In a second.

Too many people are getting onto some scary drugs to quick fix a problem. I am not a fan of it and neither is my wife. The strongest thing we have in our house is ibuprofen or Tylenol.

Once again a nut job was on the radar, I am not sure what the answer is. I just read an article a nutjob was just arrested for making tons of threats to news agencies and others. He is in jail held on a 15K bond.

2 weeks ago a Facebook Mom would not take no for an answer and actually stopped a school shooter who was on his way to shoot up 3 schools. You barely read about it in the news. Her local police told her she was over reacting.

Through face book she found the nutjobs location and called his local police who listened to her, knew who he was went to pick him up and found him driving his car, loaded up with ammo guns, bullet proof vest and plans on how he was going to shoot up the schools.

He was also investigated by the FBI in the past and deemed a non threat.


This cat was on the radar too, I think that we need to be looking at what is going wrong, why these people keep slipping through the cracks.

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by Jims5543

........This cat was on the radar too, I think that we need to be looking at what is going wrong, why these people keep slipping through the cracks.

To the best of my knowledge HIPAA was meant to protect workplace discrimination for people with AIDS along with the other protections. I think it's time for gov't to take another look and see if there are any amendments that could be made to where medical records could be made accessible to LEO. Don't know if this could be a partial solution but something needs to be done.

I found out this morning that a friend from High School, Danny Dingman who I played baseball with (I graduated Thousand Oaks High), his son Blake was one of those killed, only 21 y.o.

I haven't talked or socialized with him since we played softball in the mid 1980's, contacting him now might not be the best at this traumatic time. I'll just donate in his sons honor. I can't imagine what he's going through, his kid looked just like him, I'm sure with the same athletic ability and love of cars and 4x4 trucks.