Maybe odd bicycle drivetrain question

masraum · 08:28 PM

I'm not about to spend several hundred (more) dollars on bike stuff, but...

I test drove a bunch of bikes recently, and one of them, had an SRAM drivetrain with "doubletap". You use a single lever for up and downshifts. If you push the lever over a little, it upshifts, but if you push the lever over a lot, it downshifts. I REALLY liked the way they worked.

It seems like all of the manufacturers want their drivetrains to be matched up, ie, shimano tiagra comes in crankset, cassette, brifter/shifter and derailleurs. But, I suspect, you could if you so desired, use a 105 rear setup with a Claris or Sora front setup or maybe a 105 front with an Ultegra rear. There may be some that don't mix/match, but I suspect some would.

So, with that in mind, could you take a bike that had a 3x8 Shimano setup (like mine) and upgrade just the rear to say 10 or 11 speed shimano?

And even whackier, could I take my bike that has Shimano Claris 3x8 and turn it into a hybrid with an SRAM doubletap 10 speed rear cassette, derailleur and brifter and leave the front Claris triple chainring and derailleur in place? I'm sure at some point, the chain width might change which may be a problem, and like I said, I'm not planning to do this any time soon (we've spent a fortune on cycles and cycling gear), but I'm curious if it's possible and if it's "possible but not recommended because..."

I'm thinking that as long as the shifter/brifter and derailleur match, then you should be good.

My bike does have disk brakes, but they aren't Shimano brakes, and they aren't hydraulic.

masraum · 01-15-2019, 08:19 PM

OK, I just found the following on the bike barn website.

Quote:

There are two main chain sizes, 1/2 x 3/32 and 1/2 x 1/8. The 1/2 refers to the distance from pin to pin. The 3/32 and 1/8 refer to the width of the space between the inside sideplates. 1/2 x 3/32 chains are referred to as "derailleur chains" because they're narrow chains for use with bicycles with derailleur gearing. Note: When buying this type of chain be sure to get the one made for the number of cogs on your rear wheel, such as 8-, 9- or 10-speed. The other size chains, 1/2 x 1/8 are referred to as "coaster-brake" or "BMX chains" because they're wider, and for use with coaster-brake, BMX and certain 3-speed drivetrains. If you have any questions about chain compatibility, please contact us.

So it sounds like 1/2x3/32 is standard. And I looked at 3 chains that were listed as 8, 9 and 10 speed chains. Assuming they are all 1/2x3/32, they all also are listed as having 114 links. So the length isn't different. So what is different between them. And, of course, the chain is easy enough to swap. It's just another data point.

It also doesn't seem like the sizes of the cogs vary other than there being more of them. IE, you seem to be able to get 11-32, 11-28, etc... and 50-34 or 50-39-34 seem common regardless of whether it's a Shimano Claris, Sora, Tiagra, 105 or SRAM.

look 171 · 01-15-2019, 08:49 PM

No go with mixing with SRAM shifters and Shimano rear mech. They don't mix and do not shift well, at all. (for 10 and 11 spd anyway) ASk me how I know.

You can however run 10 or 11 spd on your bike (if should be wide enough) but a new shifter, rear derailleur cassette and a new specific chain for 10 or 11 spd.

I am a huge Shimano fan. Switched form Campagnolo years ago. They just work and work. I have SRAM Force 10 spd on one of my bikes and this thing has not missed a shift no matter how hard I beat on it. The original chain was not changed for two years and it still worked very well. Finally it got changed out because I value my nuts more then 30 bucks. It was stretched that was for sure.

masraum · 01-15-2019, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by look 171

No go with mixing with SRAM shifters and Shimano rear mech. They don't mix and do not shift well, at all. (for 10 and 11 spd anyway) ASk me how I know.

You can however run 10 or 11 spd on your bike (if should be wide enough) but a new shifter, rear derailleur cassette and a new specific chain for 10 or 11 spd.

I am a huge Shimano fan. Switched form Campagnolo years ago. They just work and work. I have SRAM Force 10 spd on one of my bikes and this thing has not missed a shift no matter how hard I beat on it. The original chain was not changed for two years and it still worked very well. Finally it got changed out because I value my nuts more then 30 bucks. It was stretched that was for sure.

Right, that's exactly what I meant, swap the entire rear (cassette, derailleur and brifter) to SRAM doubletap, but leave the entire front. I've seen that the chains do supposedly slim down, but I assume something like this should work.

SRAM 10 speed rear cassette, SRAM rear brifter and derailleur, 10 speed chain (whatever brand) and leave the front alone.

I've read that the 11 speed rears could require a different hub due to them being slightly wider.

look 171 · 01-15-2019, 09:25 PM

You running 8 spd now?

Change them all, its not that much more and keeping the same crank should be OK. It isn't that much more money. You thinking about 10 or 11 speed? I am not sure about the latest and the greatest, but most 10 and 11 speed are interchangeable. 1-0 spd need a spacer at at the base of the cassette body to push out the cassette a little.

herr_oberst · 10:04 PM

I'm going to be honest. The bike you have and the drivetrain and brakes that it came with will work fine for you for now. If you start upgrading, you'll be on a slippery slope trying to chase something that you don't have enough miles under your belt to identify. I mean no disrespect at all with that statement.

Concentrate on learning to ride. Learn how to work the components you have now. The stuff is brand new, and it was designed with trickle down tech from the upper groups - it's better in many respects than what was available in the upper groups not that long ago.

If you want to get your hands dirty, make sure you know how to adjust the cables and the pads, (and how to replace pads) and how to clean and oil your chain.

You have brand new bike, it has a triple with an 8 speed cassette. That should be enough gears for the ride that you'll be doing. There are going to be a whole lot of new sensations that you will be feeling as you start to train for two 75 mile days in a row.

The way your feet and hands and butt feel after 25, 35, 55 miles, the power in your legs, your whole mental outlook as your spend a whole morning or a whole day on top of a bike, with another day to go.
Your body will be starting to tell you things it needs, and you need to be aware enough to listen; that information is learned through seat time.

herr_oberst · 01-15-2019, 10:07 PM

As to your chain width guide, 8 speed chains are incompatible with 9/10 speed chains, and 11 speed is not compatible with any of those and 12 speed is not compatible with any of those

herr_oberst · 01-15-2019, 10:08 PM

A competent shop MIGHT be able to spread the rear dropouts enough to fit the 9/10/11/12 cassette, but, they may screw it up, too. Your bike is alu, and is not as easy to set as steel.

LEAKYSEALS951 · 01:01 AM

One can go down a rabbit hole of changing driveline stuff. Some people like to tinker, and I've certainly done it since I was a kid.

My current frankenbike setup is (something like) an sram rear cassette/derailleur/shifter combo and a triple front shimano setup on a campagnolo 102mm widtch bb, with some custom micro cogs... something like a 48-11 top gear and 20-36 low gear for mountain cross type stuff. It works- sortof.

Here are some things you'll get to deal with when you start to mix and match with triple front chainrings and such.

1.(mentioned already) rear stay width. In the old days, everything was 130mm? Now, you have the 135mm? so you get to stretch the rear (as mentioned) to get the rear wheel on. That's not what you want to mess with when you are on a ride- although with disc, you are probably already at 135mm. Perhaps there are even wider settings. I can't keep up.
2.( mentioned already) narrower chains made for these newer 11-12 speed thingees are not going to play well on the 8/9/10 thicker front chainrings.
3. The wider rear cassettes when combined with the triple front chainring will have more chance to cause cross shifting issues. For example- in your other thread about which gears to avoid, you don't want to run granny gear (inboard) in the front, and high (meaning the outboard 11tooth/ or 12t (whichever it is) in the back. When you widen the rear cassette width, you run into an entire range of unuseable gears. For example, on my bike, if Im in my 20 front granny gear, the chain catches on the middle front chainring gear from about the middle of the rear cassette out- so (something like)(20x11,12,13,14,15,17,20, etc... cannot be used...only 20x ,30,32,34,36) works if that makes sense.
4. If the rear cassette adds much gear range- for example 12-28 old gear ratios- now 11-34 new ratios, the derailleur arm might not have enough length(throw) to keep the chain tight in all ratios (especially when a triple front chainring is involved.)
5. If the rear cassette adds much gear range- you might need to add more/ new chain for more length, which contributes to problem #4. If chain length is not added, you might get unuseable large- to large gear combos which you have to remember not to shift into- easier said than done- while riding.
6.If the rear cassette adds more gears (say 11 speed vs 9) at all, you "might" run into front derailleuer alignment issues. perhaps not- but this can be a pain that can cause much hassle/missed shifts/ dropped chains off front when you go down rabbithole of modifying/ adjusting front derailleur to accomodate the chain splaying out to wider rear cassette widths. Also- the front derailluer is made to contact the width chain it was made for- for example, a front 8 spd derailluer will shift an 8 speed width chain fine, but is too wide to change a 10 speed chain as effectively. You will get poorer shifting and potentially more jumped chains as result.
7. Depending on how close the front derailluer is to the frame, it might not even be able to be adjusted to jump the chain from the middle to the small front chainring if the rear is in the 34/36 (whatever the lowest rear inboard chainring) position is.

Probably looks like I've typed a lot-and at two a.m. in the morning, I feel I am being unneccessarily wordy- except, I have run into every single one of the issues in my tinkering.

Personally, I'd just ride the bike, get some miles, and if the bug still afflicts you, get a whole new bike, or upgrade at a later time.

The triple chainrings in the front are great for a lot of gear range, but they (especially when tinkered with) are not the smoothest shifting things compared to double - or especially the 1x systems.

Good luck.

look 171 · 01-16-2019, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LEAKYSEALS951

One can go down a rabbit hole of changing driveline stuff. Some people like to tinker, and I've certainly done it since I was a kid.

My current frankenbike setup is (something like) an sram rear cassette/derailleur/shifter combo and a triple front shimano setup on a campagnolo 102mm widtch bb, with some custom micro cogs... something like a 48-11 top gear and 20-36 low gear for mountain cross type stuff. It works- sortof.

Here are some things you'll get to deal with when you start to mix and match with triple front chainrings and such.

1.(mentioned already) rear stay width. In the old days, everything was 130mm? Now, you have the 135mm? so you get to stretch the rear (as mentioned) to get the rear wheel on. That's not what you want to mess with when you are on a ride- although with disc, you are probably already at 135mm. Perhaps there are even wider settings. I can't keep up.
2.( mentioned already) narrower chains made for these newer 11-12 speed thingees are not going to play well on the 8/9/10 thicker front chainrings.
3. The wider rear cassettes when combined with the triple front chainring will have more chance to cause cross shifting issues. For example- in your other thread about which gears to avoid, you don't want to run granny gear (inboard) in the front, and high (meaning the outboard 11tooth/ or 12t (whichever it is) in the back. When you widen the rear cassette width, you run into an entire range of unuseable gears. For example, on my bike, if Im in my 20 front granny gear, the chain catches on the middle front chainring gear from about the middle of the rear cassette out- so (something like)(20x11,12,13,14,15,17,20, etc... cannot be used...only 20x ,30,32,34,36) works if that makes sense.
4. If the rear cassette adds much gear range- for example 12-28 old gear ratios- now 11-34 new ratios, the derailleur arm might not have enough length(throw) to keep the chain tight in all ratios (especially when a triple front chainring is involved.)
5. If the rear cassette adds much gear range- you might need to add more/ new chain for more length, which contributes to problem #4. If chain length is not added, you might get unuseable large- to large gear combos which you have to remember not to shift into- easier said than done- while riding.
6.If the rear cassette adds more gears (say 11 speed vs 9) at all, you "might" run into front derailleuer alignment issues. perhaps not- but this can be a pain that can cause much hassle/missed shifts/ dropped chains off front when you go down rabbithole of modifying/ adjusting front derailleur to accomodate the chain splaying out to wider rear cassette widths. Also- the front derailluer is made to contact the width chain it was made for- for example, a front 8 spd derailluer will shift an 8 speed width chain fine, but is too wide to change a 10 speed chain as effectively. You will get poorer shifting and potentially more jumped chains as result.
7. Depending on how close the front derailluer is to the frame, it might not even be able to be adjusted to jump the chain from the middle to the small front chainring if the rear is in the 34/36 (whatever the lowest rear inboard chainring) position is.

Probably looks like I've typed a lot-and at two a.m. in the morning, I feel I am being unneccessarily wordy- except, I have run into every single one of the issues in my tinkering.

Personally, I'd just ride the bike, get some miles, and if the bug still afflicts you, get a whole new bike, or upgrade at a later time.

The triple chainrings in the front are great for a lot of gear range, but they (especially when tinkered with) are not the smoothest shifting things compared to double - or especially the 1x systems.

Good luck.

What, chasing OMAS bolts and headsets?

look 171 · 01-16-2019, 01:20 AM

Listen to these guys, Steve. They are the resident road bike nut jobs and have been messing with them for a long time. If you really want to tinker and get grease under your finger nails, then I think you should do it and scratch that itch. Part of the fun is also to explore and glue your eye balls the catalogues well, the net now and read all about it so you can spend more money. Fun stuff, no question about it but be really careful with alignment issues and they are so minor and the tolerances are so close that any out of adjustment issues or the "It fits" will cause slight rubbing of the chain. That will ruin my day on a long ride, I tell ya. Nothing like noise coming from the drive train. I want to stick a pump into someone's wheel if they have noise drive trains riding near me. My suggest to you is also to tinker with another bike if you want 10 or even 11 speed. You have that tiny third ring up front and that's enough to climb trees with what you have back there. Your course is pretty flat, so I really think what you have is more then enough to get over those hills with ease. Go out for a 30-40 mile ride and you will know what you really need. Tennis shoe would be Ok to keep from falling for her

LEAKYSEALS951 · 01-16-2019, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by look 171

What, chasing OMAS bolts and headsets?

Oh what fun!

wayner · 01-16-2019, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by look 171

What, chasing OMAS bolts and headsets?

Or just a stem cap

https://www.kapz.com/headset-caps?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1P_OzZfy3wIVEYzICh3ggA2BEAA YASACEgIjcvD_BwE

T77911S · 01-16-2019, 03:59 AM

i will keep my old dura ace with cables and levers (from the 90's)

masraum · 01-16-2019, 04:35 AM

Thanks folks. Yeah, if this were to happen, it probably wouldn't be for a year. It's just me daydreaming and learning about the fiddly bits. I always like to know about the fiddly bits. I've already looked at the adjustments for the brakes and derailleurs, watched videos and read the manufacturers manuals on them. I like to know how that stuff works.

wayner · 09:40 AM

Quick, someone introduce him to a heart rate monitor and analysis software before he buys more bicycle parts

The man needs a diversion...fast!

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

I'm a Shimano guy. You can mix and match Dura-ace, Ultegra, 105, Sora, etc. It is very common on the lower end bikes to have 105 front and sora rear.

Ultegra is usually last years Dura-ace. Same with the 105. Usually the BEST price point for "performance" is Ultegra/105. I usually ran Ultegra.

Just make sure you have the right chain. 9-10 (rear gear) is different chain than 8 different than 11.

Honestly, most people run a double up front and 10 in the back. I am 3 years behind mechanically, these days...

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

See this article

https://www.sportivecyclist.com/shimano-105-vs-ultegra-is-it-worth-it-to-upgrade/

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

The REAL question is...what are you doing with the bike. I did more playing with the gear ratios in the front and rear, because we do quite a bit of hill work.

I ran 11-28 in the rear (10 gears) and had a triple 30-42-53 up front. Most doubles are something like 34-50 or 34-52. And my last bike was a double and I ran 34-52 with 11-28 in the rear.

11-52 is pretty tall, but is a good ratio for long distance on the flat. 28-34 is a good "granny" gear for hill climbing. Most of the people with trouble in the hill are running 38-52 and 12-24. 24-38 is not fun for hill climbing.

As a rider with a significant weight penalty...the hill climbing granny gears were enough to allow me to hit the hills in Bastrop and not have to walk. Yes, you will understand soon. You will also know Rek hill and you might, if you learn the routes, learn about "oh-****" hill.

At this point, get out and ride. Get to the point of being able to do 20-30 miles. And work on getting your speed up to 15-17 mph. THEN start to learn how to ride in groups.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

BTW - If I remember, you are in South-east. If so, TX-3 is a REALLY great road for riding. But there are lots of good areas to ride down there, just no hill training. Lots of routes starting from the Dog Track.