Another brand new 737 Max crashes

[javadog]

Jackscrews can have tremendous leverage on a component like that and one factor that’s important is that the forces on the stabilizer don’t tend to be able to move the jackscrew. The jackscrew can easily move the stabilizer but the stabilizer cannot easily move the jack screw.

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by javadog

Jackscrews can have tremendous leverage on a component like that and one factor that’s important is that the forces on the stabilizer don’t tend to be able to move the jackscrew. The jackscrew can easily move the stabilizer but the stabilizer cannot easily move the jack screw.

Yup, that's why.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by seafeye

Boeing Manufacturing Countries.

A very incomplete list. You will notice that all of the components listed are structural parts and control surfaces. No systems listed - hydraulic, electrical, landing gear, avionics, navigation, environmental, flight controls, etc. There are dozens and dozens (if not hundreds) more suppliers than that. Not to mention who has design responsibility for all of it.

Interestingly, none of the systems, assemblies, or installations implicated in their current issues made this list.

Originally Posted by KNS

Boeing is still filling orders for other 737 models, not just the Max.

Yup. They will be filling pre-Max orders for some time.

I am not entirely sure (since I have been out of the loop for a couple of years and never worked on Renton aircraft anyways), but it would not surprise me in the least if the affected systems are in place on pre-Max 737 models, if not other Boeing aircraft.

The rather unsophisticated public and press has no idea how new technologies proliferate across the range of currently offered models. The larger twin aisle aircraft, however, are typically flown by more experienced pilots, flying for larger, more successful airlines, and probably would not have the problems demonstrated by second rate third world airlines with under qualified, inadequately trained pilots.

Originally Posted by greglepore

Man, Jack screws. Jeff, given that jammed j/s's have been an issue for a long time, whether mechanical or aerodynamic load, why hasn't someone come up with an alternative?

Have they been? Really? My God, there are literally tens of thousands of aircraft in the air today with jack screws utilized to set horizontal stabilizer trim. Hundreds of millions of flight hours. There have been a few notable failures, definitely. Each and every one has been traced to improper maintenance or, at worst, faulty manufacturing resulting in premature component failure. The concept itself is very sound.

We could only dream of such reliability in any of the other mechanical devices with which we surround ourselves. Granted, the price of failure in aviation is much higher than with, say, washing machines, but so is the demonstrated reliability. Anything made by man will never be perfect all of the time. Commercial airplanes are actually about as close as we have ever come.

[Seahawk]

Didn't know where else to put this, but I enjoyed the video.

I have been to Davis Mothan (where military aircraft are stored) but not to Victorville.

I would love a tour.

[jyl]

This is an interesting thread. I've no technical knowledge of aircraft. Here's my general conclusion from reading all of this - please tell me if you guys disagree?

1. The plane has some problems (MCAS reliance on single sensor, MCAS operation, warnings optional, training procedure and/or manuals incomplete).
2. The problems can be fixed relatively quickly and inexpensively, once the fix is approved, and the fix won't affect the characteristics that carriers bought the plane (economy, performance, etc).
3. A couple hundred people have died, mostly from third-world countries, the probable damages payout is in the few hundreds of millions US$.
4. Carriers have had to ground their planes for a few months, business losses may be in the few-several hundreds of millions US$.
5. Boeing will be raked over the Congressional coals, but the inquiries will show (maybe) negligence rather than deliberate criminality, fraud, or corruption.
6. The only other source of large commercial aircraft, Airbus, has had similar problems.
7. The carriers are not seeing a downturn in demand, they still need the planes that they have on order, and if they abandon their Boeing orders to buy from Airbus, they'll get their planes even later
8. The current production, that is stacking up as work-in-progress, will be delivered to carriers later this year.
9. Boeing is a critical military contractor in addition to a critical commercial supplier.

If this is all correct, seems to me this will cost Boeing around $1BN in damages and not much in lost orders, although some revenue will be shifted from 1H19 to 2H19.

[Rinty]

Originally Posted by jyl

This is an interesting thread...

For sure.

Back in the day, when I had my Mooney, I used to subscribe to all the MOT accident reports. They were interesting reading.

[Racerbvd]

This happened just a few miles from my home

WTLV Breaking News

*

WATCH LIVE: 737 plane crashes into St. Johns River by NAS Jax

The airplane was a 737 passenger plane with about 150 people on board.

LOCAL*

58 seconds ago

Author:First Coast News

Published:10:41 PM EDT May 3, 2019

Updated:11:29 PM EDT May 3, 2019

JACKSONVILLE, Fla — An airplane with over 100 passengers has gone off a runway and into the St. Johns River near the NAS Jax airport.*

The airplane was a 737 passenger plane with about 150 people on board, a source told First Coast News.*

Everyone aboard the plane is alive and has been accounted for, according to Mayor Lenny Curry and the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office.*

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/mobile/article/news/local/watch-live-737-plane-crashes-into-st-johns-river-by-nas-jax/77-b7db12b0-629b-4b78-83ba-e479f3d13cb5

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by Racerbvd

This happened just a few miles from my home

good news everyone is ok

bet it flying to Mecca and operated by 3rd world pilot's

[kach22i]

More details.................

Boeing 737 coming from Guantanamo Bay slid off runway and fell into Florida river, officials say
https://wtkr.com/2019/05/03/commercial-jet-carrying-136-passengers-lands-in-water-near-nas-jacksonville-sources-say/

A spokesman from the Naval Air Station Jacksonville said a Boeing 737 slid off of a runway into the St. Johns River at 9:40 p.m. ET. The station told CNN affiliate WJXT that the plane appears to have skidded off the airport runway while trying to land and ended up in the river.

The station said the plane was arriving “from Naval Station Guantanamo Bay, Cuba into Naval Air Station Jacksonville ” and crashed into the river at the end of the runway..............

The Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office said in a tweet the plane was in “shallow water,” and was “not submerged.“

Looks to be an old facility, hemmed in by the river and a highway. Shorter than usual runways?

http://www.scharch.org/Ed_Scharch/08-nas-jax-oper.htm

NAS Jacksonville History

Naval Air Station Jacksonville was officially commissioned on October 15, 1940, and it became the first part of the Naval Air Operational Training Command complex, that included NAAS Cecil Field and Naval Station Mayport. Captain Charles P. Mason raised his pennant as the station's first commanding officer...........

The hard-surface runways were painted to resemble the deck of an aircraft carrier.

https://maps-jacksonville.com/nas-jax-map

[Seahawk]

NAS Jax is a very modern facility. Home to the P-8 Poseidon and HSM-60 and MH-60R.

I have flown into Jax dozens of times. Beautiful place.

[widgeon13]

CNN had interviewed a woman on the flight this morning and her profound description of the event was "the landing didn't feel right"!

No ****, way to go CNN.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

NAS Jax is a very modern facility. Home to the P-8 Poseidon and HSM-60 and MH-60R.

I have flown into Jax dozens of times. Beautiful place.

737-MMA / P8A Poseidon

The MMA, US Navy designation “P-8A Poseidon” ........is based on the 737-800ERX

Thank you for answering my question.

Good to know that the runway is long enough for those two helicopters you listed.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

CNN had interviewed a woman on the flight this morning and her profound description of the event was "the landing didn't feel right"!

No ****, way to go CNN.

More to that article that is newsworthy.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/04/us/military-plane-crash-bormann-passenger/index.html

(CNN)
A civilian defense attorney aboard the military-chartered Boeing 737 that skidded into a Florida river said the landing "didn't feel right."

Cheryl Bormann spoke to CNN's Don Lemon as she waited with the rest of the passengers rescued following the incident......

"The plane ... literally hit the ground and then it bounced. It was clear that the pilot did not have complete control of the plane because it bounced some more, it swerved and tilted left and right," she said. "The pilot was trying to control it but couldn't, and then all of a sudden it smashed into something."

The plane skidded from the runway into the St. Johns River at 9:40 p.m. ET, but did not submerge.

There were also pets checked in the luggage compartment below. Bormann said they have not been rescued, and they likely didn't make it.

[URY914]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

NAS Jax is a very modern facility. Home to the P-8 Poseidon and HSM-60 and MH-60R.

I have flown into Jax dozens of times. Beautiful place.

Then you've flown over my house dozens of times too. I live on the east side of the river.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by kach22i

Good to know that the runway is long enough for those two helicopters you listed.

Interesting tidbit - the 60 has a forward landing speed of 70kts if required, which they practice all the time.

Among other reasons, that forward air speed helps with loss of tail rotor control or thrust: At certain forward air-speeds the 60 can fly without an operational tail rotor. Lot's of reasons why, but there is at least one instance where a 60, without tail rotor thrust, was able to land at 70kt forward airspeed and control the landing on roll out. The procedure is in NATOPS. Coming into a hover with an controllable or operation tail rotor is not possible.

Originally Posted by URY914

Then you've flown over my house dozens of times too. I live on the east side of the river.

Jacksonville has really come into it's own since the 90's. In the old days SH-60B's were all in Mayport and the H-3's were in Jax. I went to the FRS requal in Mayport and spent many nights over in Jax with friends of mine on the weekends. Things have changed for the better.

Nice place!

[beepbeep]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Correction, A-330 and not a 380.

First mention of it was in post 196.

OK, I thought you were talking about Qantas A380 that blew the engine on climbout from Singapore.

[greglepore]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/magazine/boeing-737-max-crashes.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

This guy can write...his account of the post 9/11 work at ground zero is brilliant, as was his recent piece on malaysia air.

[KNS]

^^

That was good reading.

[legion]

If only they applied the same standards to stories about Republicans.

[flipper35]

It was a good article and similar to what some of us stated early on. It is a training issue. That is whey the 5 or 6 MCAS "failures" here in the US ended in non-eventful flights. Not that Boeing couldn't have handled it much better or shouldn't share some of the blame.

Mac has another article saying Boeing needs to give up thinking the pilots can think on their own now.

https://airfactsjournal.com/2019/09/the-perfect-pilot-myth-is-finished/

I know a guy that flew attack aircraft and other asked if he ever flew in combat. I think if he did he would not know what to do if thing did no match the checklist.