jeeping accident at moab utah

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by 911boost

Hmmm, this thread is similar too and as is typical with any Harley thread on here there is a fair amount of stereotyping taking place.

These "stereotypes" do not just coalesce out of thin air.

Brub Brrub Brrrrub! - Video Clip | South Park Studios

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by widebody911

These "stereotypes" do not just coalesce out of thin air.

Brub Brrub Brrrrub! - Video Clip | South Park Studios

Exactly. I'm into a pretty diverse range of hobbies and interests. The vast majority of folks in all of them are intelligent, responsible, and, most of all, aware of their limitations. Especially when new at it. Without exception, those who are new at whatever it is will be welcomed with open arms by the old timers, who love to help and offer their hard won advice. They've made the mistakes, they've wasted the money, they maybe have even been hurt. They earnestly hope they can help the "noobs" avoid most, if not all, of that.

Then again, each and every one of my interests has its share of folks who live that particular interest's stereotypes. It's unfortunate, but pretty much every interest or vocation we enjoy is "blessed" with this sort. More unfortunately, they are the ones that stand out to those looking in from the outside, who are not involved in whatever vocation it may be. So, the onlookers form opinions based upon what they see of any given hobby or sport - not the steady Eddies participating and enjoying the sport with little fanfare, but the clowns who stand out. So they form their stereotypes, and pretty soon, "they're all like that...".

[juanbenae]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

not the steady Eddies participating and enjoying the sport with little fanfare, but the clowns who stand out.

this I believe was the point of the guy in the video I posted commenting on the incident. with the AmericanJeeper guy's youtube channel's "follows" and "clicks" he references could inflate one's self confidence to the point where something like this is more apt to occur.

[herr_oberst]

I did one or two arrive-and-drives when I first bought my car, and decided that staying away from that kind of herd mentality was going to be a much better option in the long run; It's unfortunate, too, because it's a lot of fun to see backroads with a big group of enthusiasts, but it's way, way, WAY too easy to get caught up in the moment. Inflated confidence is exactly the sensation I felt, and I realized that something was apt to occur.
This is also the reason I also stay away from roadbikes.
I know how I get sometimes. :-)

[berettafan]

I disagree with this concept of 'earning your stripes' building a jeep. buy it, build it, whatever. most of this stuff is just legos for adults. we wheeled a modest TJ for a few years and had a blast with it. the truth of the matter is many guys are out there looking for the limit. putting down dirt trails gets old fast.

the negligent party here was the bystander. if you've been to wheeling events you know to stay the heck away. some people don't bother trying to be safe but that's on them. could this guy have handled it differently? I'm sure he wishes he did. but damned if he should have to worry about people standing too close while hes trying to negotiate a world famous rock trail.

bottom line it is entirely predictable that someone will lose control. I don't think we need not condemn an entire group of people over this. A jeep Rubicon vs standard has absolutely zero correlation to a GT3 vs lesser car.

[doug_porsche]

Said 100% as a joke.

Now the jeep driver can collect his insurance money and by that Mustang he has had his eye on.


Joke aside, I am impressed with the unfortunate lady who was hits comments.
She seems to be thankful about the rescue work done, not outspoken on how the accident happened

[911boost]

Good summary Jeff.

God forbid we all fit in the stereotypical Porsche/Mustang/BMW driver category.

I just did my first PCA drive in years, maybe a decade. It was relaxed and mellow and i enjoyed it. Now, i doubt i will do another for a while because the timing just does not work with so many kids sports.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by berettafan

I disagree with this concept of 'earning your stripes' building a jeep. buy it, build it, whatever. most of this stuff is just legos for adults. we wheeled a modest TJ for a few years and had a blast with it. the truth of the matter is many guys are out there looking for the limit. putting down dirt trails gets old fast.

the negligent party here was the bystander. if you've been to wheeling events you know to stay the heck away. some people don't bother trying to be safe but that's on them. could this guy have handled it differently? I'm sure he wishes he did. but damned if he should have to worry about people standing too close while hes trying to negotiate a world famous rock trail.

bottom line it is entirely predictable that someone will lose control. I don't think we need not condemn an entire group of people over this. A jeep Rubicon vs standard has absolutely zero correlation to a GT3 vs lesser car.

Boy did you ever miss the point.

The "stripes" are not earned by building the Jeep or track car. The "stripes" - the experience - are gained from time on the trail, or time on the track. Many will start their journey in a vehicle of modest capability, be it on the trail or on the track. Even at that, they will recognize that their first vehicle, as modest as it may be, still has capabilities that exceed their own.

So they drive, and learn, along the way. It's not until it becomes obvious that the vehicle is holding them back that they begin to modify it. It's these guys that understand why they are modifying their Jeep or their car in a certain way, and just what any particular modification will do for them. They have gained a level of insight that they might miss if their first Jeep, or first Porsche, were already immensely capable, "right out of the box".

Granted, there are certainly enthusiasts in both realms that are buying Rubicons and GT3's who have the experience to fully and safely utilize their performance. Those are not the kinds of guys we are talking about here. We are discussing the kinds of guys who run out and buy these extremely capable vehicles, but are lacking the background and experience to safely utilize their full potential.

Until these sorts of vehicles became available right off the showroom floor, enthusiasts were pretty much left to build them for themselves. Or maybe buy someone else's completed project. That is kind of where the "built it themselves" sidetrack got started, but that's really not the point of this discussion. The point is that anyone with the money can now buy a level of performance, on the trail or on the track, that they may not be ready to exploit. It never used to be that way, back when we had to build them ourselves.

And yes, in the context of this discussion, a Jeep Rubicon vs. a standard Jeep absolutely does have a very strong correlation to the GT3 vs. lesser sports car relationship. It is the exact same dynamic. I can't believe you do not see that.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by herr_oberst

I did one or two arrive-and-drives when I first bought my car, and decided that staying away from that kind of herd mentality was going to be a much better option in the long run; It's unfortunate, too, because it's a lot of fun to see backroads with a big group of enthusiasts, but it's way, way, WAY too easy to get caught up in the moment. Inflated confidence is exactly the sensation I felt, and I realized that something was apt to occur.
This is also the reason I also stay away from roadbikes.
I know how I get sometimes. :-)

Boy, I hear you - I look back upon my introduction into the Porsche world and just shudder. It would be fair to say "I didn't know what I didn't know", or to paraphrase Sir Jackie "it takes a certain lack of imagination to drive with the PCA...".

My God, when I look back at some of the drives - PCA drives, mind you, as well as "private" drives, it is well and truly a miracle that I never wrecked my car, wound up in jail, hit someone, or any of that. There were plenty of local PCA drives in which one or more of those things did happen. Sometimes I'm thankful that I wasn't on those particular drives. Sometimes I think they might have hastened my learning curve, though.

Not many of us have the self control or presence of mind to avoid getting caught up in the moment. I finally learned that the best way not to go there was, well, not to go there. I just quit participating. Too much "red mist", "one upsmanship", and penis length competitions for my tastes. I now drive exclusively with some very close friends, and/or my sons, all of whom long ago ran out of things to prove to one another.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

And yes, in the context of this discussion, a Jeep Rubicon vs. a standard Jeep absolutely does have a very strong correlation to the GT3 vs. lesser sports car relationship. It is the exact same dynamic. I can't believe you do not see that.

not even in the same universe.

rubi adds f/r lockers. if anything it's easier to drive off road and can be driven much slower thanks to the lockers.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by berettafan

not even in the same universe.

rubi adds f/r lockers. if anything it's easier to drive off road and can be driven much slower thanks to the lockers.

Of course.

The correlation is in the idea that thus equipped, the inexperienced Rubicon driver will attempt to tackle terrain or obstacles that he would not even consider in a lesser Jeep. Terrain or obstacles that, even with such a capable machine, he simply does not have the experience to tackle. He gets in further over his head than he would in a lesser machine because the capabilities, the limits, are so much higher.

This is exactly what we see on the track with a driver new, or relatively new, to track driving when he shows up in his newly purchased GT3. Similar to your Rubicon example, the GT3 is "easier" to drive on the track, because its capabilities and limits are so high. As long as the driver stays within his capabilities, all is well. But if or when he exceeds them, the consequences can be much more dire, because those limits are so high.

That's the correlation - inexperienced drivers in rigs with far more capability than they themselves possess, when they finally exceed those capabilities, bad things happen. On the trail or on the track. Very much a 1:1 correlation, just that one happens in the dirt, and the other happens on pavement.

[911boost]

I agree Choc.

The second you lose respect for whatever you are driving/operating in any situation is when you get in trouble. Like Jeff mentions in his GT3 example crap gets sideways at a much more dangerous pace.

Chainsaws come to mind for me. I’m scared to death of mine and what it could to me if I wasn’t paying attention and it’s not one of those souped up knarley ones they use in logger competitions

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by 911boost

The second you lose respect for whatever you are driving/operating in any situation is when you get in trouble. Like Jeff mentions in his GT3 example crap gets sideways at a much more dangerous pace.

no, it does not get sideways at a dangerous pace in a jeep just because it has lockers.

have any of you actually driven a jeep off road?

they're lockers, not friggin jet packs and nitrous bottles.

[911boost]

Read the part before the bold, I was not talking about a Jeep.

[cstreit]

..bound to happen...

...I always worry for the spotters when they're climbing over rocks.

[Dantilla]

berettafan, try this:

A GT3 can make an unskilled driver feel invincible on the track
A Rubicon can make a Jeep newbie feel invincible on the rocks.
"If he can do it, so can I"

Both will end up over their head.

[berettafan]

Guys I’m done with the bench racing ‘yeah that’s like my gt3’ business. It’s clear some have absolutely no idea what they’re talking about and just want to stand on high as experts. Some of the statements in this thread are just silly.

Any modern Jeep can do things you guys would be stunned at. Rubi has nothing to do with it. It’s not some massively dangerous machine as some here want to make it out to be. It’s a Jeep. Like any other Jeep it can go some pretty crazy places. Jeff has one conversation, decides for himself with one guy the rubicon model is just waaay to much machine for a noob and finds a comparison he can wrap his brain around and suddenly that’s just how it is.

I’ve done the Jeep thing. Handling a gt3 or any powerful sports car is just worlds away from slow crawling through rocks.

But hey, jeff and boost please go on with being experts on a subject based on ‘knowing a guy who offroads and he says...’.

[Jeff Higgins]

Everybody else participating in this conversation understands the correlation. Everybody.

Oh, and by the way, while I'm not as "into" the four wheeling scene as I'm into the Porsche and motorcycling scenes, I have been wheeling (at a decidedly amateur level) since I bought my first FJ40 in about 1982. I've never been without an a least slightly modified Land Cruiser, my current off-road rig being a 1993 "triple locker" 80 Series with a 3" lift, Warn winch, and factory brush guard. I do have a toe or three in these waters. I merely cited my buddy's opinion because he is about as deep into the wheeling scene as I am into the Porsche scene, and spends a lot more time with that crowd than I do. I offered his comments as some insight into what that group thinks about the "Noob-icon". Just offering an experienced hand's point of view. I'm not sure why you would find that so threatening.

So, yeah, another internet hero who completely missed a pretty simple point and will never say die. Never back down, never concede you may have missed this one. Instead, double down on the insults, and claim that everyone else has "absolutely no idea what they are talking about". We see this all the time.

[Dantilla]

I have a Rubicon.
I've had multiple Jeeps.
I don't go on group runs, I've never had spectators. Never been to Moab.

The Jeep takes me to wilderness places otherwise inaccessible. To get away from crowds.
Far less expensive to get a Rubicon than start throwing buckets of dollars at a lesser Jeep.
First thing I wanted to do was remove the "Rubicon" graphics from the hood, but my wife wants them to stay (we call it "her" Jeep)

In this internet age where everything is being videoed on smart phones, it's easy for the unexperienced to see what other Jeepers are doing and assume they can do the same.

Just like a guy at the track seeing another car go through Turn 1 at 120 mph and now "knows" he can do the same when his run group hits the track.
Instead, he hits the wall.

Just as Red Mist overcomes inexperienced track drivers, when one brings their high-dollar, modified Jeep on a group run, the newbie doesn't want to be the wimpy one.

I don't follow anybody on you tube. Never heard of the guy who had this tragic accident.
But when one has you tube followers, how much pressure is there to do something extreme to keep them interested?

On the track or in the rocks, human nature is the same- Who's the top dog?
"My lap times are better than yours"
"I can get all the way up the steepest washout where others fail"

[Dantilla]

Originally Posted by berettafan

.... worlds away from slow crawling through rocks.

Wheeling ain't always about slowly crawling over rocks.