wtf? 35 of 50 planes have FOD in the gas tanks

[id10t]

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/20/02/22/0812248/after-inspecting-50-airplanes-boeing-found-foreign-object-debris-in-35-fuel-tanks

"Materials left behind include tools, rags and boot coverings, according to industry officials familiar with the details... [T]he new problem raises fresh questions about Boeing's ability to resolve lingering lapses in quality-control practices and presents another challenge to Chief Executive David Calhoun, who took charge in January... Last year, debris was found on some 787 Dreamliners, which Boeing produces in Everett, Washington... Boeing also twice had to halt deliveries of the KC-46A military refueling tanker to the U.S. Air Force after tools and rags were found in planes after they had been delivered from its Everett factory north of Seattle. "


How does something like that get by? I mean, I guess I could understand one or two things once in a while - stuff does happen, edge cases, etc. But 35 of 50 inspected? Even if they don't find another, 35 out of 400?

[Gretch]

sabotage.

[rfuerst911sc]

I retired from a Lockheed Martin plant that built F22's/F35's/C130's and we preached/taught FOD awareness ALL the time . You have to have very robust processes and EVERY worker in the plant has to be on board with FOD awareness . But you can have the best processes and the best staff of assemblers it only takes a few that don't give a crap to mess everything up .

Relying on inspectors to " catch everything " is a flawed process because nothing is 100 % when it comes to humans . We used to walk the flight line with teams of folks , seems simple enough look for anything that shouldn't be on the FL and pick it up . Things get missed . Our workers/assemblers/inspectors caught things ALL the time and still items were missed and caught by DCMA . When DCMA finds something the $hit hits the fan !!!

Everyone has to realize that when it comes to building an aircraft lives are at stake . But in a society that doesn't seem to value human life or at least a portion of society it is hard to stress the importance of a pilot/flight crew and their families . I'm glad I no longer have to deal with it .

[GH85Carrera]

FOD is evidently a real issue. THe local AFB here in OKC is Tinker AFB. They are a major repair facility for the Air Force. The have new aircraft inspected and often find FOD in places that would almost have to be deliberate.

It was a major issue with space craft in the Apollo era. In space all the crap came floating up, and causes some real eye irritation and breathing problems. Now all space craft are assembled in clean room conditions, and great care is taken to clean every nook and cranny.

[Seahawk]

FOD is always an issue but there is essentially no excuse to find any new or reworked aircraft.

The tool part is what worries me: Tool control is an essential part of any production line.

I was a maintenance officer on my last detachment. The Senior Chief and I checked all tool boxes before he would sign safe for flight after even routine maintenance.

This is really not acceptable on any level...they need complete overhaul of processes after a few public executions.

[red-beard]

As a startup engineer, in my Field Engineering days, the best was the frilly women's underwear found in the "witches hat" strainer in the fuel gas line. How did that end up in the fuel line?

At another site, there was basically a pile of condoms under the air intake. I'm guessing that peaking unit, in an out of the way corner, became a "make out" spot. I wonder what they would have done it it had been remotely started!!!

[dar636]

Originally Posted by gretch

sabotage.

+1.

[Jeff Higgins]

It's not sabotage. It's lazy, disinterested hourly employees (mechanics, sealers, electricians, etc.) that are shielded from discipline for this carelessness (and other forms of underperformance) by their union. It's a very frustrating, maddening situation.

I found a real haven from these slovenly union types in AOG. By virtue of it being a "special assignment", and an upgrade in union job classification for those guys, everyone who travelled with us had to qualify to do so. They did not have to qualify with their management or anything, they had to qualify with us - they guys they flew with. Everyone had to make three "tryout" trips, and the rest of the team - us engineers included - got to vote on whether they stay or go. It really separated the wheat from the chaff.

They did toolbox checks at the end of every shift. The bus that would take us back to the hotel would not leave until every tool was accounted for. Every rag, every sealant tube, every stir stick was tracked. Every part - including fasteners - that came off of the airplane was tagged and placed on a rack. Anything that was dropped was found before work resumed.

I remember one time in Tel Aviv I was walking under a wing when a mechanic working on the strut above me dropped a nut. It had obviously just fallen on the floor, maybe rolled under the hi-lift he was working from. Well, several hours later with the entire crew looking for it, we found it - it had taken a weird bounce and landed inside the c-channel frame on the hi-lift. Literally no one was going to work on that airplane until that nut was found. If it took until the end of shift, the bus would not leave until that nut was found.

And that's what it takes. It takes guys willing to commit to that level of discipline. Working in that environment, with mechanics like that, is a Godsend compared to working with their counterparts in the factory at home. And that is where the FOD comes from - slovenly mechanics who are protected by their union. No "process", no matter how robust, will be 100% effective with people like that.

[SiberianDVM]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

It's not sabotage. It's lazy, disinterested hourly employees (mechanics, sealers, electricians, etc.) that are shielded from discipline for this carelessness (and other forms of underperformance) by their union. It's a very frustrating, maddening situation.

I found a real haven from these slovenly union types in AOG. By virtue of it being a "special assignment", and an upgrade in union job classification for those guys, everyone who travelled with us had to qualify to do so. They did not have to qualify with their management or anything, they had to qualify with us - they guys they flew with. Everyone had to make three "tryout" trips, and the rest of the team - us engineers included - got to vote on whether they stay or go. It really separated the wheat from the chaff.

They did toolbox checks at the end of every shift. The bus that would take us back to the hotel would not leave until every tool was accounted for. Every rag, every sealant tube, every stir stick was tracked. Every part - including fasteners - that came off of the airplane was tagged and placed on a rack. Anything that was dropped was found before work resumed.

I remember one time in Tel Aviv I was walking under a wing when a mechanic working on the strut above me dropped a nut. It had obviously just fallen on the floor, maybe rolled under the hi-lift he was working from. Well, several hours later with the entire crew looking for it, we found it - it had taken a weird bounce and landed inside the c-channel frame on the hi-lift. Literally no one was going to work on that airplane until that nut was found. If it took until the end of shift, the bus would not leave until that nut was found.

And that's what it takes. It takes guys willing to commit to that level of discipline. Working in that environment, with mechanics like that, is a Godsend compared to working with their counterparts in the factory at home. And that is where the FOD comes from - slovenly mechanics who are protected by their union. No "process", no matter how robust, will be 100% effective with people like that.

That's awesome. How did you get the 10mm sockets to stay with the rest of the tools?

[Scott Douglas]

And to that end I blame Boeing themselves, Jeff.
Where I worked, we built satellites. When Boeing took over they made it their mission to dumb down the instructions to the point they could hire anyone off the streets to build them.
It just doesn't work that way.
You could tell that they were used to the mentality that if something went wrong you could always land the plane and fix it. Not so with sat's. Once they're up, they're up to stay in most cases. They have to work correctly first time, every time.

[id10t]

Originally Posted by SiberianDVM

That's awesome. How did you get the 10mm sockets to stay with the rest of the tools?

Little known fact - the airline mechanics union realized this was a problem and in one of early strikes one of the concessions was that no commercial air craft would ever use a 10mm anything.

So when a flying wrench orders his tool set, he does it as the "10mm delete" option. Apparently very rare to see one out "in the wild" unless you work in the industry (I've never seen a real one, and a really good fake is hard to tell from the real thing - always ask for the CoA).

But they never have to worry about loosing the 10mm socket.

[svandamme]

Define "FOD" in this context.


one nut ain't going to clog a fuel intake or filter (to small, fuel will still flow around it)
No wrench is going to do so either. (to big fuel will still flow around it)
50 screws won't either....(they will just bunch up and act as a filter)

[devodave]

Not to go too off topic here, but the methods Jeff outlined work well. Performed refueling of a nuclear reactor back in the late 80's. Same process was used, everything was accounted for. Clean suits were required for everyone not already in Anti-Cs. Every radiological survey swipe (1-1/2" paper disc) was listed in a log by its sequential number with time it went in the containment and when it came out. Every tool, procedure folder, ink pen, even our eyeglasses, were attached via a lanyard to some fixed point. Rigging equipment could not be galvanized due to the risk of the coating flaking off and getting into the system! Eyeglasses had to have molded ear pads (no floating pads with screws) and the temple screws were covered with tape. Even the tape was cut clean and cross hatched with a Sharpie to make sure it could be 100% accounted for. The ink pens were gutted to remove the spring and button and then reassembled with shrink wrap to increase it's chance of not coming apart (lanyard replaced button). There was even a heated discussion on whether the ball at the tip of the ink pen posed any issue should it become dislodged from the pen (it does happen). Entry into the refueling enclosure required a complete pat down by one of the nuclear inspectors - nothing in your pockets under your suit-up, only jewelry allowed was wedding bands under your gloves, etc.

So all of this and you would expect things to proceed great? Well, not so fast! During one entry, one of the riggers needed to extend his body a bit to retrieve some of the rigging equipment and change began to rain down into the pit where the removal cask sat. Seems he left some change in his pants pocket that was not felt during the pat down. The entire team had to sit through a stern discussion after that instance!

All this might seem like overkill, but it why you don't read about many issues with that particular nuclear program!

[Scott Douglas]

Originally Posted by svandamme

Define "FOD" in this context.


one nut ain't going to clog a fuel intake or filter (to small, fuel will still flow around it)
No wrench is going to do so either. (to big fuel will still flow around it)
50 screws won't either....(they will just bunch up and act as a filter)

Foreign Object Debris - anything that isn't part of the assembly/system is FOD.

We used to put sat's thru the Pachinko test where we'd roll them over to see what fell out. Tools left inside could/would do major damage on their way out. Small nuts/washers could/would become floating debris up in space in the weightlessness environment having the potential of shorting out electrical equipment.

[Seahawk]

I have worked on, set-up, aircraft production and rework lines across four manufacturing entities, two private, two governmental.

FOD is a management issue, pure and simple. Human nature is all about leaving FOD behind. Companies decide what is a priority and the manufacturing floor reacts accordingly.

Same as it ever was.

My son worked two summers for a good friend of mine who owns a foreign car repair shop. Things got busy, Bill didn't do the in process checks on the repair my son was doing but did do a rag and tool count before he started or released the car. My son was down one rag.

Jack found it inside the rocker cover. Bill charged Jack for time, materials and being stupid.

Management issue for 95% of the problem.

[David]

I read that Boeing was addressing the issue with stand down meetings and signs?!?!?!

How about jumpsuits with no pockets being worn into FME areas and all tools, rags, etc being checked into and out of FME areas?

[A930Rocket]

I worked at the Boeing plant is Charleston for a few years, operating the Brotje machine. Before that in training, I worked in the mid body 20 building. Believe me, there were a lot of people who didn’t need to be building jets. It was a case of doing the least amount of work in the fastest time. With non stop talking and cutting up. Of course, it wasn’t everyone, but a good number.

I was a FOD Focal and at our weekly meetings, we sat around talking, wasting time. I mentioned it to higher management and it was quickly disbanded.

Tools were managed with your chits. You had 20 with your name on them. Open the toolbox with your ID. Take a tool, leave a chit.

Glad to be out of there and back to building homes.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by SiberianDVM

That's awesome. How did you get the 10mm sockets to stay with the rest of the tools?

And this is why all aircraft, regardless of country of manufacture, are built to U.S. Standard, not metric. Even Airbus. They are not stupid - everyone lives in fear of the 10mm socket...

Originally Posted by svandamme

Define "FOD" in this context.


one nut ain't going to clog a fuel intake or filter (to small, fuel will still flow around it)
No wrench is going to do so either. (to big fuel will still flow around it)
50 screws won't either....(they will just bunch up and act as a filter)

Inside the tanks, yes, this kind of debris is fairly innocuous. It won't get past the filters. But FOD control is a discipline, a mindset - it has to be consistent everywhere.

[Geneman]

i don't get the : "10mm socket". issue.. is this an inside joke?

[SiberianDVM]

Originally Posted by Geneman

i don't get the : "10mm socket". issue.. is this an inside joke?

Go check your socket set. The little bastards like to hide.