Not Ventilators - You've been Tesla'd

[red-beard]

Elon Musk promised ventilators. These are BPAP machines.

A few days later, New York City mayor Bill de Blasio was thanking him for “donating hundreds of ventilators to New York City and State, including our public hospitals”, saying he was “deeply grateful”.

Fair play, we thought. At least he seems to be trying to help, rather than mounting some silly PR stunt, like, we dunno, building a kid-size submarine or something. We were a bit confused, however, by how it seemed so easy for him to procure over 1,000 ventilators when the rest of the world’s governments seemed to be suffering from such a dire shortage.

On Wednesday, we got a sneak peek of some of these ventilators:



(Notice the carefully stickie-taped Tesla-logo A4 printouts covering the boxes, even though these machines are not made by Tesla but rather, as you can see, ResMed. Wouldn’t want to miss out on a PR opportunity.)

You might also be surprised to see there, on top of the boxes, not a ventilator, but a BPAP (Bilevel Positive Airway Pressure, also called a “BiPAP” machine), which is used to treat sleep apnoea by maintaining a consistent breathing pattern at night (it’s very similar to a CPAP machine, but it has two pressure settings rather than just one).

Now BPAP and CPAP machines are sometimes called “non-invasive ventilators”, but these are not the ventilators that can be used in intensive care units, which are invasive ventilators that deliver oxygen to the lungs and are used as part of life support.

These invasive ventilators are the ones that much of the world is in such desperate need of. BPAP and CPAP machines are not normally called ventilators at all, and are far more common: according to Forbes there are more than 8 million CPAP users in the US alone.

As we wrote in an article last week, some techy types have been looking at ways in which CPAP machines could be repurposed to help with Covid-19. But even this would not be for the severe cases that require intensive care.

And there have even been warnings that CPAP or BPAP machines could make things worse. The American Society of Anesthesiologists on February 23 issued guidance warning that CPAP and BPAP machines “may increase the risk of infectious transmission”.

To give you an idea of quite how different a BPAP machine is from an ICU-grade ventilator, one of these bad boys will set you back around $800. That’s if you can still buy them — the machines that Musk and Tesla appear to have delivered to New York are the ResMed S9 Elite, which have now been discontinued. A ventilator, meanwhile, can cost as much as $50,000. So over 60 times more, in other words.

Two days ago, Musk said he had more of these “FDA-approved ventilators”, and that he was willing to ship them worldwide:





https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2020/04/01/1585782924000/Elon-Musk-promised-ventilators--These-are-BPAP-machines-/

[sammyg2]

LOL technically CPAP machines are a form of respirator.
But yeah, shenanigans.

What was that famous PT muskum quote?
There's a sucker born every minute.

I bet if we dug deep enough we'd find that they were not only discontinued, but refurbished. And the gubmint was being back-charged for full price.

He's good!

[Gretch]

He is doing something............. he gets credit for that in my book. And up until now I have not been a fan of tha man I think of as a charlatan.

Seems no good deed goes unpunished......

WTF is it with small minded people??????????/

[red-beard]

The problem is he gets publicity for pasting Tesla on someone else's equipment, calls it a Ventilator but it is basically a high end CPAP machine. I don't think those are approved for use in an ICU.

[sammyg2]

he promised something but did a bait and switch and did not deliver what he said he would, even though it is in desperate need.
and you defend this?
small mind indeed.

One page one of Wayne's ventilator thread it was suggested that maybe they could modify CPAP machines to build make-shift ventilators as they were cheep and a dime a dozen, but the idea was more of a brainstorm thing. A starting point, raw materials. But not a finished product packaged as a real ventilator.

[Gretch]

everyone is a phuqing critic................ and being so takes zero resources, guts, integrity or balls.

THAT is my opinion......... and it stands.

go do something constructive and positive or STFU and stand by while someone else does.

parsing semantics makes one a public fool............. but a fool nonetheless.

[JavaBrewer]

Humm, so is Elon being constructive or positive with his 'effort'? Just trying to gauge the situation at this point. This person is hugely backed with tax payer $$$, and if the linked story is true, rings like the bogus 'solution' to the trapped cave rescue. Fail. Where am I wrong?

[ckissick]

Semantics? Semantics, in this case, has to do with how a word is used to describe a situation or object. "CPAP machine" vs. "ventilator" is not a matter of semantics. Also, he ended up not doing something constructive and positive. He tried to, I suppose, but failed. That's all. He should have done his homework. Or perhaps somebody misled him.

[aigel]

Its like "autopilot" - semantics.

I have mixed feelings about this. Beats doing nothing but on the other hand it is a PR stunt.

Don't say too much or he will call you a "pedo".

G

[1990C4S]

Simple questions: Are they beneficial? Are the hospitals taking them and using them?

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by Gretch

everyone is a phuqing critic................ and being so takes zero resources, guts, integrity or balls.

THAT is my opinion......... and it stands.

go do something constructive and positive or STFU and stand by while someone else does.

parsing semantics makes one a public fool............. but a fool nonetheless.

It's not semantics. When someone's in respiratory failure--meaning, that person has to be intubated and has to have a machine breathe for them because their own lungs aren't strong enough to support their life--those BiPAP machines aren't going to do squat for them. And I say that as someone who's intubated people and adjusted the settings on vents. (You don't just plug 'em in and hook 'em up to the tube coming out of the patient's mouth.) Those aren't ICU level machines.

It's like going to war, needing firearms for our troops, and buying them 1000 NERF guns.

[aigel]

Originally Posted by Noah930

It's like going to war, needing firearms for our troops, and buying them 1000 NERF guns.

Haha! I guess it is in line with the BS submarine they built for the Thai cave rescue.

I find the couple logos they pasted on there very funny. You either do something like that well, or just say here are the boxes, let everyone know they are from us.

FWIW, Musk was NOT on board with shutting down in the Bay Area. He continued to run the factory after county shelter in place went out until he was ordered to shut it down. 10000 people that come in from all over the area. If all tech leaders here would have been like that and tweeting a bunch of BS like Musk did, we'd be having NY numbers by now. It is disappointing because he has the brains and education to understand the math behind this. He chose business interest over the safety of the people. It is all about him. Sorry, but we all sacrificed a lot on the business end to flatten the curve

G

[john70t]

F-4 Phantom: "With enough power you can make even a brick fly"
Isn't government sponsorship great..?

Too bad his rocket ship to put the Torah/Talmud on the Moon ended up in little pieces.

Like his latest fling and replacing A123Battery for green energy after that company was sabotaged.

[Wetwork]

Over month ago it only took me five minutes with google to realize a ventilator isn't even close to a CPAP and the CPAP would most likely make things worse. And I don't know squat. You'd think the learnid would have done the same thing as me and realized it wouldn't work. What a joke.

I read somewhere 1% pass in a week on the vents, and those who don't are on the vent for four or more weeks. Lot's of it is under heavy drugs and induced coma. But again, I don't know squat just what I'm reading and half believing on the webs.

I basically did the same thing, was gonna buy a microscope on Amazon so's I could check myself. You know spit on a slide, stain it, look in the eye-piece and ta-da...virus!

Don't bother genius. Got to get a electron-microscope...dammit. I did Y-tube how to load the slides in a electron and kinda got a idea how to mess with one. Probably only take me a couple of weeks, maybe month of screwing around to figure one out. But still....-WW

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Noah930

It's not semantics. When someone's in respiratory failure--meaning, that person has to be intubated and has to have a machine breathe for them because their own lungs aren't strong enough to support their life--those BiPAP machines aren't going to do squat for them. And I say that as someone who's intubated people and adjusted the settings on vents. (You don't just plug 'em in and hook 'em up to the tube coming out of the patient's mouth.) Those aren't ICU level machines.

It's like going to war, needing firearms for our troops, and buying them 1000 NERF guns.

So basically there are now a bunch of Tesla branded CPAP machines purchased with our tax dollars sitting in hospitals gathering dust, while Musk parades around as a hero? Did I get that right?

[Sooner or later]

Weren't they donated? No tax dollars spend on purchase?

[berettafan]

just reaffirms my opinion of the man.

[Mahler9th]

There may be more to the story if you are truly interested...

I suspect that Musk/Tesla wanted to help and that they sought out the right folks from whom to get advice. And those folks suggested that they do what they did.

If that is the case he may have stated that he would help with ventilators in the public domain before he got such advice...

Or he may not know the proper terminology. Who cares?

https://engineering.berkeley.edu/news/2020/04/turning-sleep-apnea-machines-into-ventilators/

https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/letters-health-care-providers/ventilator-supply-mitigation-strategies-letter-health-care-providers

Likely the Office of Device Evaluation at FDA is busy. Back in 2017 that FDA office was headed by a PhD-- I met his brother back then who was at the time an EE consultant working on project I was leading. The gentleman told me the story of how is ex-college roommate once asked him to help tech cars at an IMSA race in Florida in the 70's. His ex-college roommate was Jerry Woods' best friend. The world is small.

Anyway, yes these types of machines can possibly be helpful... there is more to critical care than just one type of machine, and desperate times call for desperate measures.

I applaud Tesla in this effort.

[Mahler9th]

From FDA:

"If the number of ventilators in your facility is running low, consider alternative devices capable of delivering breaths or pressure support to satisfy medically necessary treatment practices for patients requiring such ventilatory support. Health care providers should use their judgment based on the condition of the patient and the circumstances in the facility to choose the best option. Examples of alternative uses of respiratory devices used to address shortages might include the following, which the FDA believes may help increase availability:

For any patient needing ventilatory support, continuous ventilators labeled for home use may be used in a medical facility setting depending on the features of the ventilator and provided there is appropriate monitoring (as available) of the patient's condition.
For stable patients, emergency transport ventilators may be used for prolonged ventilation in a medical facility setting.
For any patient needing ventilatory support, anesthesia gas machines capable of providing controlled ventilation or assisted ventilation may be used outside of the traditional use for anesthetic indication. Because of significant differences between the anesthesia gas machine and traditional critical care ventilators, use or supervision by an anesthesia provider is recommended. Refer to the manufacturers' websites for specific instructions on safe use of anesthesia gas machines for this indication.
Noninvasive Ventilation (NIV) Patient Interfaces capable of prescribed breath may be used for patients requiring such ventilatory support, including NIV Patient Interfaces labeled for sleep apnea.
Continuous Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP), auto-CPAP, and bilevel positive airway pressure (BiPAP or BPAP) machines typically used for treatment of sleep apnea (either in the home or facility setting) may be used to support patients with respiratory insufficiency provided appropriate monitoring (as available) and patient condition."

[Mahler9th]

One of my friends works for a large SF Bay Area contract manufacturer that among other things makes components and sub-assemblies of various types of medical equipment.

They declared themselves an essential business.

He told me that they are primarily making components for gaming equipment

Lots of other similar things are going on.