Sweden Did It Wrong

[legion]

The only way out of this is to follow Sweden's example.

[McLovin]

Everyone will do just that. Most pretty much are, including most of the US now.
The great unproven unscientific experiment the US imposed was a huge failure.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by brainz01

More data and a comparison of outcomes:

https://youtu.be/eOvOHiuKS40

Excellent.

I just made it through the first video. Will hit this one.

Best.

[legion]

Originally Posted by McLovin

Everyone will do just that. Most pretty much are, including most of the US now.
The great unproven unscientific experiment the US imposed was a huge failure.

Then why are there "COVID restrictions" everywhere I go? Why are my kids not in school? Why did half the businesses in town shut down?

[McLovin]

Because of where you live.
It’s not like that in most of the US right now.

[Brando]

Originally Posted by legion

The only way out of this is to follow Sweden's example.

AND shedding the governors, legislators, and bureaucrats that are pushing against following Sweden's example.

[ckissick]

Guess which country is doing the best?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-european-countries-our-world-in-data-chart-new-infections-124649035.html

From the article:

"New infections and deaths have been at a low level in Sweden in recent weeks despite the country deciding not to fully lockdown when the pandemic hit earlier this year."

I think the word "despite" should be changed to "because of".

[legion]

You have to let it run its course. You can do it quickly, like Sweden, or super slowly while restricting rights and making the problem worse like everyone else.

[pmax]

The lockdowns killed.



Any further lockdowns will kill more.

[Jeff Higgins]

From the article linked above:

Germany’s health minister Jens Spahn expressed confusion over the rising infections in Spain, saying: “There aren’t many other countries in the European Union to have adopted such tough measures to contain the first wave.”

I'm starting to think that when the dust settles over all of this, if we are able to conduct a completely honest, unbiased, non-political debriefing of how this all played out, we will see that the countries that imposed the strictest lockdown measures will have suffered the most prolonged battles with this virus.

Mind you, I believe it is still far, far too early to make any call whatsoever, but it does look like Sweden is emerging as the early "winner". The panic driven shutdowns across Europe, and the politically driven shutdowns here at home, are looking less and less justifiable as we work our way through this thing.

Unfortunately, with so many of our Governors having gone all-in, there is little hope that they will ever admit they may have been "wrong". There is little hope that they will look at the results in Sweden and alter their approaches based upon the plainly observable evidence that Sweden's inaction was at least as good as, and in many cases better than, those who enforced even the most severe restrictions.

We are now approaching 200,000 deaths here in the U.S. A terrible number, for sure, but does anyone remember what we were told the total would be if we "did nothing"? I remember estimates as high as four million deaths. And now we can clearly see a country that, relatively, "did nothing" while we locked down, and they actually did better than we did. Maybe it's time for our politicians that pushed so hard for these now demonstrably ineffective lockdowns to man (or woman) up and admit they were wrong... And if anyone honestly believes that is ever going to happen...

[Shaun @ Tru6]

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I realize you guys are alt-Right/borderline Q/full-on inculcated Q, but this pretty much spells it out in as close to a legitimate publication you could bear to read.

‘But What about Sweden?’ Well, Let’s Take a Look over There . . .

By Jim Geraghty

September 15, 2020 4:52 PM

When you write a piece like the one I did on the home page today, you inevitably are greeted by a cavalcade of “but what about Sweden, huh?” responses. Somehow this Scandinavian nation has caught the imagination of quite a few voices on the right, with a belief that somehow Sweden cracked the code and figured out just the right approach to the pandemic. The widespread perception in some circles on the right is that Sweden enacted few restrictions on citizens’ lives, kept the caseload low, minimized the damage to the nation’s economy, and achieved herd immunity.

None of these assertions are exactly accurate; some are less accurate than others. The reality of Sweden’s policy choices is that they didn’t yield the nirvana the cheerleaders claim nor the catastrophic disaster that the country’s fiercest critics predicted. Perhaps the strongest argument against the lockdowns in the U.S. and most other European countries is that Sweden tried a different approach and ended up with comparable results.

First, Sweden did enact many restrictions on daily life, ones that are comparable to the restrictions in place in much of the United States right now. Sweden banned visits to retirement homes in April. Bars and restaurants were limited to table service, with tables two meters apart, and shut down a few establishments that didn’t enforce those rules. The country recommended that those who could work from home do so and that citizens practice social distancing. Public events were capped at 50 people, and starting in April, the government recommended citizens “avoid any large social gathering such as parties, weddings, funerals and other events attracting many people at the same time.” For businesses, “shops and shopping centers must do what they can to limit the number of people on their premises at any one time.”

The primary difference between Sweden and most other Western countries is that the Swedes never used the formal force of law to get citizens to alter their normal behavior. The Swedish government declared, “you should do these things to protect your health and the health of others,” and — in a concept many Americans will find alien and hard to understand — the overwhelming majority of citizens followed the instructions without any threat of legal penalty. Swedes trusted their leaders and health experts, and in most cases, didn’t need the potential penalty of fines and jail time to motivate them.

Second, Sweden’s caseload and death rate are not quite the worst, but pretty bad, particularly when compared to its neighbors.

Sweden currently ranks 34th highest in the world in cases per million citizens, at 8,638, and ranks 13th highest in deaths per million citizens, with 579. The United States ranks 11th in both categories, at 20,421 cases per million citizens and 602 deaths per million citizens. (It is worth keeping in mind that small counties with an outbreak can rank particularly high when measuring by cases-per-million; Qatar ranks first, Bahrain ranks second, French Guiana ranks third, Aruba ranks fourth, and Panama ranks fifth.)

Perhaps a more useful measuring stick are Sweden’s neighbors. In cases per million, Denmark ranks 88th, Norway ranks 106th, Finland ranks 115th. In deaths per million, Denmark ranks 6oth, Finland ranks 78th, and Norway ranks 87th. By this measurement, Sweden is performing significantly worse than the nearest and most demographically and culturally-similar countries.

The lighter approach on lockdowns meant the Swedish economy was spared somewhat, shrinking 8.3 percent in the second quarter, and the government is forecasting an overall 4.5 percent decline for the year — better than Spain and France, but comparable to the other Nordic countries. The European Union overall saw a decline of 11.9 percent during the same period, so the Swedes did better than average. The Swedish unemployment rate appears to have peaked at 9.8 percent in June, and was down to 8.8 percent in August. That’s actually on the higher end among European Union countries.

Curiously, there’s not much sign that Swedes have developed herd immunity, at least as traditionally understood. Two studies performed in early summer by the Swedish health authorities reveal that only the 7 percent of the population had developed antibodies against him COVID-19; 12 percent had antibodies in Stockholm. One hard-hit suburb hit 18 percent. The country’s government officials have repeatedly insisted that “herd immunity” was never a deliberate goal or strategy of the country’s policies.
107

There is still time for Sweden’s situation to look better than its neighbors. Right now, Sweden is in pretty good shape. Testing is at record highs, and only 1.2 percent of the tests are coming back positive. The death rate among those infected is low. But overall, the story of Sweden in this pandemic is more voluntary restrictions, a somewhat less bad serving of economic pain, and a death toll and caseload that is pretty bad compared to its neighbors.

Perhaps if the situation in other European countries and the U.S. gets worse in autumn, Sweden will have something of the last laugh. But to the extent Sweden is a success story, it is a story of social trust — Swedes took sensible precautions to prevent the spread of the virus without lockdowns and government mandates. For America to have had comparable results, we would have needed a populace that had as much trust in government officials and public-health experts as the Swedes do.

[rsrguy]

Politics and big pharma... A marriage made in......

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

I realize you guys are alt-Right/borderline Q/full-on inculcated Q, but this pretty much spells it out in as close to a legitimate publication you could bear to read.

‘But What about Sweden?’ Well, Let’s Take a Look over There . . .

By Jim Geraghty

September 15, 2020 4:52 PM

"Jim Geraghty is the senior political correspondent of National Review."

A pseudo-science article written by a political correspondent carries little weight. Why waste everyone's precious time and energy ?

[Jeff Higgins]

Yes, Shaun, I have read that. And no, this is not a "left/right" issue in our country, as hard as the left tries to paint it as such, and as much as the feeble minded would dearly love to swallow their propaganda and believe it is. It's easy (although entirely inaccurate) to simply dismiss contrary points of view as some radical "alt-Right/borderline Q/full-on inculcated Q" nonsense when you are incapable of understanding any of it, but that is not what is going on here.

It's really very simple. No one is saying Sweden is any kind of a roaring success. Quite the contrary - we are saying their results are about the same as many other countries', better than some, worse than others. We have all been pretty clear on that.

The only thing that makes their results "remarkable" in any way is the fact that they were not an absolute disaster, they were not an order of magnitude worse than comparable countries. The fear mongers assured us they would be, and we would be as well, if we were foolish enough to follow their example.

From the article linked above:

The reality of Sweden’s policy choices is that they didn’t yield the nirvana the cheerleaders claim nor the catastrophic disaster that the country’s fiercest critics predicted.

None of us here are "cheerleaders" who are claiming they achieved "nirvana". We are, however, pointing out that the "catastrophic disaster" did not materialize. That's all. And the likelihood that the "catastrophic disaster" would not have materialized here either, had we followed their example.

There is really no more to it than that.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

No, it really is an alt-right Q thing Jeff. I know why you say it isn't, it is sort of embarrassing but I think you should embrace it vs following Peter's path... only 2 more denials to go. Anyway, Sweden as compared to its neighbors was an absolute disaster. The pure numbers don't lie. Math doesn't care who you are or what country you are from. It's as absolute as death. That the Swedish citizenry saw that in real time and copied the rest of the world's playbook isn't surprising.

[pmax]

Listen to the smart folks.



Lives are really at stake here, not politics.

[Jeff Higgins]

From a few pages back:

Originally Posted by island911

ANd off to the weeds we go... ^

Shaun, you have a real knack (and well deserved reputation) for sending intelligent discussions off into the weeds. There is a lot of information in this thread, from very reputable sources. I would suggest you go back and read it, but I know you are simply incapable of understanding any of it (which is why, time and time again, you resort to this manner of childish nonsense). So, yes, by all means - satisfy yourself that the rest of us are simply caught up in some alt-right Q disinformation fantasy land - it's the only level at which you are able to deal with anyone else's informed arguments. While you do that, the rest of us will carry on with an informed, adult conversation. Carry on.

[island911]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

I realize you guys are alt-Right/borderline Q/full-on inculcated Q, but this pretty much spells it out in as close to a legitimate publication you could bear to read. ....

We are?

Alt Right?

All of us?

Well that sounds almost as horrendous as being a Social Experimenter.

[island911]

Oh, and Sweden did it right.