Considering a 9mm

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

OK so everyone has their favorite flavor of brand. I get that. What I don't get is why do some folks feel they need a 20+ magazine for a CCP defensive weapon or a home defense handgun. As best as I can see, out in the street you may need 5-10 shots max and it is game over (prolly more like 2-5). From what I have seen, if you encounter a group, usually after the first one goes down (maybe 2, the other "peaceful protesters" scatter. A home burglary is similar. If they are coming for you a-la John Wick, then you need 525 rounds as opposed to 25. A full 10-15 mag with JPM should be all I would ever need. For CCP I want lighter. 10 rounds is heavy enough. Am I missing something?

Why would I not have as much ammo as possible for a defensive situation? There's no downside to it. When carrying in public, I have to compromise for the sake of comfort, concealment, etc. But at home the big, heavy P226 with rail light and two 18 round mags sits in the nightstand. I've never seen anyone carry something that big in public, unless open carrying, which is very common on motorcycles or in rural areas. If carrying 9mm, it's pretty easy to get a gun that holds 12-15 rds + 1 in the chamber.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Why would I not have as much ammo as possible for a defensive situation? There's no downside to it. When carrying in public, I have to compromise for the sake of comfort, concealment, etc. But at home the big, heavy P226 with rail light and two 18 round mags sits in the nightstand. I've never seen anyone carry something that big in public, unless open carrying, which is very common on motorcycles or in rural areas. If carrying 9mm, it's pretty easy to get a gun that holds 12-15 rds + 1 in the chamber.

"Wait! Hold it!... this was only supposed to last 5 rounds. Can I reload?"

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

OK so everyone has their favorite flavor of brand. I get that. What I don't get is why do some folks feel they need a 20+ magazine for a CCP defensive weapon or a home defense handgun. As best as I can see, out in the street you may need 5-10 shots max and it is game over (prolly more like 2-5). From what I have seen, if you encounter a group, usually after the first one goes down (maybe 2, the other "peaceful protesters" scatter. A home burglary is similar. If they are coming for you a-la John Wick, then you need 525 rounds as opposed to 25. A full 10-15 mag with JPM should be all I would ever need. For CCP I want lighter. 10 rounds is heavy enough. Am I missing something?

To expand on the "guns are like fire extinguishers" analogy:
Assuming that "most" car/engine fires can be put out without using the entire contents of a fire-extinguisher, you probably wouldn't carry one in your car that is half-full (if you are going to bother carrying one at all).

Also, if you ever find yourself in a situation where you need to use a 9mm "extinguisher", rest assured that your fine motor skills will go to crap from the resultant adrenaline dump.

Case(s) in point: There have been numerous OIS incidents where a lot more than 20 rounds were exchanged without a single hit on either side.

[cabmandone]

Eric,
Man you were right about the cheap spoon food! "Sold out" seems to be the order of the day. I'd really like to cycle some factory ammo before going to the reloaded stuff. The cheap stuff I can buy as "brass" is all sold out.

I got all excited about this https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/sellier-amp-bellot-9mm-luger-fmj-115-grain-500-rounds-with-can?a=961617 until I opened the page

[Eric Coffey]

Yep, it's a bit crazy at the moment but ammo prices are like the stock market. It's probably still on the rise currently, but just a matter of time before it starts to come down again.

Target Sports USA is another one to keep an eye on (and sign up for "back in stock" email notifications with).

And a couple ammo aggregator sites to check:

AmmoSeek

GunBot

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by cabmando

It wasn't a brand thing for me. It was all about feel. I held Glock, CZ, Baretta, Walther, Taurus, Springfield and a few others. The Springfield felt the best in my hand.

That's the flavor you like. Cool. Some people are buying BBQ guns as opposed to defensive weapons.

Originally Posted by tabs

As for the Austrians ehh...very functional at a reasonable cost..but it's fkin plastic for gawds sake..

You do know it is a polymer coated metal frame, right? The 'plastic gun' rants is as much sound logic as 'a Porsche is just an overgrown Volkswagen so don't own one".

Originally Posted by 911Ghia

I have the luxury of shooting at home...Folks come over to shoot, some friends from Chicago some from around here. My berm is 10 ft tall and 25 ft wide. Can’t believe how many folks with concealed carry permits can stand 7 yards from the target and put all 15 or 17 rounds into the top 10 inches of the berm........that perp would have been safe. And seems like the ones that can’t hit anything load up their mags to the max and blast away.
Rich

I envy you having the ability to shoot at home. You hit my point right on the bulls-eye. If you can shoot properly you won't need more than one or two double taps. If you think you need 20-30 rounds then IMO either you can't hit the broadside of a barn or, you think you are going to be in a John Wick movie. Defensive shooting is usually at close range (less than 5 yards maybe 7-10 max) and, after the first 4 rounds, if you haven't hit the perp you are dead anyway.

Originally Posted by cabmando

"Wait! Hold it!... this was only supposed to last 5 rounds. Can I reload?"

Are you saying you can't it a target 10-12 feet away in the first 5 shots?

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

To expand on the "guns are like fire extinguishers" analogy...

Also, if you ever find yourself in a situation where you need to use a 9mm "extinguisher", rest assured that your fine motor skills will go to crap from the resultant adrenaline dump.
Case(s) in point: There have been numerous OIS incidents where a lot more than 20 rounds were exchanged without a single hit on either side.

But they aren't fire extinguishers and more isn't better if you have never practiced. The key is to prepare so that you have muscle memory. See Ghia's post above.

Bottom Line: I hear people saying they need a 20-25-30 round mag. Carry a hundred rounds if you want. I just don't see the need during concealed carry - it just adds weight. The exception is you are walking through gang turf or target shooting and want to focus instead of reload. Just my unqualified opinion.

[cabmandone]

Joe,
I'm saying if the sh.t hits the fan, I don't want to be the first person out of ammo. 20 is better than 15. If I get as good with my pistol as I am with my rifle, I'll only need one shot but I'm not gonna count on it.

[911Ghia]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

I envy you having the ability to shoot at home. You hit my point right on the bulls-eye. If you can shoot properly you won't need more than one or two double taps. If you think you need 20-30 rounds then IMO either you can't hit the broadside of a barn or, you think you are going to be in a John Wick movie. Defensive shooting is usually at close range (less than 5 yards maybe 7-10 max) and, after the first 4 rounds, if you haven't hit the perp you are dead anyway.


Are you saying you can't it a target 10-12 feet away in the first 5 shots?



But they aren't fire extinguishers and more isn't better if you have never practiced. The key is to prepare so that you have muscle memory. See Ghia's post above.
.

Had my daughter and her fiancé over today so we got to shoot a plethora of firearms. She wants to get her concealed carry, he’s an LEO so always carries. He brought over a S&W Model 57 (?) 8 3/8 barrel 41mag, I’ve never shot one. This is 6 rounds @ 10 yards.
At 70 some days I’ve still got it. ;-)
Rich

[cabmandone]

^^^
NICE!! I could shoot in my back yard but I'd have a dog scared to death. I go a few miles down the road where my friend and I have a little better than a 400 yard range with a good backstop.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by cabmando

Joe,
I'm saying if the sh.t hits the fan, I don't want to be the first person out of ammo. 20 is better than 15. If I get as good with my pistol as I am with my rifle, I'll only need one shot but I'm not gonna count on it.

OK that is your opinion. I think if you haven't hit anything in the first 5-6 shots you are probably dead because the other guy can aim. Let's hope we never have to find out which one of us is right.

[RANDY P]

I've carried a Glock G26 with an extended (G23?) mags since 1998- It's on it's 2nd set of night sights. Like a member of my family.

I love metal guns- 1911's own several in different shapes and sizes- but wouldn't want to carry one. A Glock is reliable, and best part if it gets confiscated (cuz I used it) I can always get another. It's the Honda Accord of sidearms.

rjp

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

You do know it is a polymer coated metal frame, right? The 'plastic gun' rants is as much sound logic as 'a Porsche is just an overgrown Volkswagen so don't own one".

Glocks do not have "polymer coated metal" frames. However, I completely agree that arguments against their utility/robustness lack merit.

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

If you think you need 20-30 rounds then IMO either you can't hit the broadside of a barn or, you think you are going to be in a John Wick movie. Defensive shooting is usually at close range (less than 5 yards maybe 7-10 max) and, after the first 4 rounds, if you haven't hit the perp you are dead anyway.

Yeah, I think 30-round "extended" magazines are not very practical for EDC applications, but 10-18 in a "standard" magazine is usually not an issue for most, depending on the specifics. As I mentioned above, a lot goes out the window if you find yourself shooting on a "2-way" range. Namely your fine motor skills go to chit, and your adrenaline dumps/spikes. It's not the same as a nice, air-conditioned, well-lit range shooting at high-contrast paper targets, that are stationary, at known distances, that don't shoot back, and don't have any cover, while you're wearing ear-pro.

If you are OK with carrying a 6-7 shot pistol, that is certainly your prerogative. I just don't pretend that I would be a steady-handed, steely-eyed Harry Callahan if the SHTF. So, I'll take as many rounds as I can (comfortably) carry, than you.

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

Are you saying you can't it a target 10-12 feet away in the first 5 shots?

I think he simply understands the above. I am sure most of us could easily produce respectable groups on a stationary paper target that is 10-12 feet away, that isn't shooting back.
The problem is that most potential bad-guys are not made out of paper, and they probably won't stand still at known-distances for you, while promising not to shoot back.

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

But they aren't fire extinguishers and more isn't better if you have never practiced. The key is to prepare so that you have muscle memory. See Ghia's post above.

Sorry, it's a fairly common analogy...

A gun (in the context of self-defense) is much like a fire extinguisher. It is a tool for a situation that you hope never occurs, and is even unlikely to occur, but you carry one anyway. And yes, in the unlikely event of a fire, I'd want the biggest extinguisher I could find (and would be regretting choosing a really tiny one at that moment, just because it was cheaper/lighter/smaller/etc.). Obviously, there are rational/practical happy-mediums, and of course something is always better than nothing. YMMV there I suppose.

[Por_sha911]

I see your points Eric and grant you that there is certainly a difference when the target is also a threat. There is no way to fully practice for a non static scenario.

Sadly, what most people won't do is make sure they are at 100% skill level in the static settings. This gives them the best chance of letting muscle memory take a big chunk of the adrenaline out of the equation. In the end though, some people will never survive a high threat scenario because their mental makeup is not strong enough for them to process and adapt. Unfortunately for them, 12, 22, or 1222 rounds won't help. They would probably be better off ducking for cover and calling 911 with pulling a trigger as a last resort.

Other than that, yes, I will agree that if I am going shot for shot with a threat I want to have one more bullet than them (I just wish they would declare up front before we start how many rounds they have, LOL). My person preference is to not have a large heavy gun slowing down my draw so I look for a balance of size versus viability and that equation is a personal choice each person needs to make.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

I see your points Eric and grant you that there is certainly a difference when the target is also a threat. There is no way to fully practice for a non static scenario.

and that is the whole story. I practice a lot, but I've never faced a hot barrel pointed at me. IDK how I'd react. Just yesterday I was at the range with a friend. I was practicing pistol at 15 yds, he was shooting at 25. I tried 25 but missed half of my shots. He laughed and said "WTF are you gonna do when the bad guy is that far away?" "Run" says I.

[cabmandone]

^^^
Spray and pray!! I haven't decided what distance I'll practice at yet. I'm thinking in the 15 to 20 yard range.

[Por_sha911]

Most encounters with a threat happen in less than 30 feet (10 yards). I seriously doubt you will have a home intruder 25 yards away. On the street? Maybe 10 yards. More than that you are looking at a sniper more than a personal attack.

[Rick Lee]

You just about never be justified in shooting someone 25 yds away. It's fun to shoot gongs and steel plates at that distance, but I wouldn't consider it for real SD training.

[Bill Douglas]

Google speed steel shooting.

This is how to get comfortable with your gun. So everything about the gun and it's handling becomes second nature.

Disclaimer: wear eye protection

[cabmandone]

Well, It's here! I'll post a pic of it tomorrow. Today has been an epic journey. I put about 200 top down miles on the 911 today. I hit a few "local" gun shops looking for lead and primers... No joy. I did pick up 100 rounds since I was oot and aboot. My gun came in late this evening so I drove over to pick it up from my friend with the FFL. Hopefully the food for this thing becomes more abundant but I've got 200 rounds of new ammo before I have to get too worried. Plus my nephew has primers, lead and powder and my friend that I bought some rounds off of has a few more to spare. Hoping to get a little range time in with it on Sunday. Tomorrow is "install the new stereo and backing camera in my daughter's car" day.

[red-beard]

With ammo: Buy Early, Buy Often...