Accupuncture: Real / BS / in between ?

[Nostril Cheese]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

Side note (and I appreciate your reply very much), it's harder to take medical advice from a "Nostril Cheese", you know ? ;-) But joking aside, thanks all for your answers, I was expecting more negative comments but the lack thereof so far is a good indication there may be something to it. If it works for me, eh...

But Nostril Cheese is a "medical function", not advice..

It really seemed to work. I'm certainly all about science and fact. However Chinese medicine has been around a long time and I've "seen things" I cant explain from time to time. Glad it worked for you.

[URY914]

My wife used to go to this women about a mile from the house. Always said how great it was and I should go too.

The women moved her office across town and wife stopped going. Now she doesn't even talk about it. Odd I think but par for the course.....

[GH85Carrera]

If it works for you great. Magic crystals, pyramid power, cedar smoke, or meditation all can work if reall believe it. The Placebo effect is well documented. It is your money to spend as you see fit.

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

If it works for you great. Magic crystals, pyramid power, cedar smoke, or meditation all can work if reall believe it. The Placebo effect is well documented. It is your money to spend as you see fit.

I'm not the guy to defend the thing I'm asking about, but I think you might be painting with a broad brush here re: "Magic crystals and meditation. Meditation is shown to have measurable effects on the brain scientifically. Not that those effects matter or that I do it either ;-)

Ascribing results purely to Placebo bothers me a bit because on the one hand I tried it expecting zero results - firmly in the "we'll see about this" doubters camp. More to not be rude to my friend who was insisting I try. On the other maybe getting pricked in many placed acts as a placebo of sorts after all, involuntarily?

All I know is my PF was better the next morning, hard to argue against that. Elbow, zero difference. 50-50. Will try again and report.

[john70t]

After a back injury in my prime I couldn't stand a few minutes doing dishes or waiting in a supermarket line without laying on the floor to stop the spasms. Now I like to shovel snow. I am a believer. There were also some Rolfing sessions involved.

It does take many sessions to begin to have effect, not instant. But the effects can be somewhat permanent unlike drugs. Drugs can artificially release dopamine etc and cover up pain instead of healing the source of it. The brain/nervous/circulation system is connected to every part of the body. It's a two-way street. Your body also affects your brain and mood equally. As to how it works besides the Chi thing, I believe on one level acupuncture releases tension and restores circulation. And that frees up the body to return to a normal unguarded upright natural state.

A bad neck or shoulder soon leads to leaning to one side..which leads to a bad back...which leads to a bad knee...and then a bad foot. The foot is where the pain is felt but it is not the source of the problem.

[RWebb]

some of each Real / BS / in between

practitioner's skill level is very important

my PCP MD does it based on diagnosis; or he will use a TEMS type unit

there is a substantial body of science on it in refereed journals, so it is obviously not all BS

I suspect efficacy will be hit or miss, given the problem even with the best practitioners; there is little downside to trying it

[Ziggythecat]

Walked in smoking 1 1/2 packs a day, 12 years ago
1 treatment.
Last cig.
No Nicotine withdrawal...no desire to smoke

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

If it works for you great. Magic crystals, pyramid power, cedar smoke, or meditation all can work if reall believe it. The Placebo effect is well documented. It is your money to spend as you see fit.

Like I said, one of my early Treatments was supposed to be for XYZ, one of the conditions was discussed, but didn't know that he was treating it. After the Treatment, the friend who recommended and took me commented and I realized that he was correct. The next treatment, I asked and the doctor said that he decided to treat it with the other ailments instead of waiting. So, if I didn't know that I was being treated, the placebo effect can't come into play. As that was one of the 1st things I thought about for the other issues.

[Tobra]

They have been doing it for thousands of years. If it did not work, they would have stopped.

[flatbutt]

After my SCI I was on oxycontin for a long time , about 4 years. I wanted to cut that down so I had a combination of massage , acupuncture and acupressure. The massage and acupressure were more effective for the chronic pain. Acupuncture helped alot with acute episodes.

[Norm K]

Originally Posted by IROC

I vote BS. One of the problems is that it is hard to do double-blind studies as it is difficult to give the patients a placebo when the treatment is sticking needles into your body. In fact, one term I've seen applied to it is that it is a "theatrical placebo".

When you read the underlying "logic" behind how acupuncture is supposed to work, it is obvious that it is a scam. "Qi" and "meridians"? Really?

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

If it works for you great. Magic crystals, pyramid power, cedar smoke, or meditation all can work if reall believe it. The Placebo effect is well documented. It is your money to spend as you see fit.

Originally Posted by Norm K

I've used acupuncture with success. Like anything else YYMV, of course.

For those who would dismiss it out of hand, who believe that any gains or relief is nothing more than the placebo effect, I would ask them to explain its efficacy on animals.

As noted, I'm one who has personally experienced positive results. I, of course, understand the placebo effect and although I don't think that's why it helped, I will not discount the possibility.

On the other hand, two of our horses and one of our dogs, along with a number of equine and canine companions of several friends, do not share that understanding and yet they were very clearly helped.

_

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Norm K

As noted, I'm one who has personally experienced positive results. I, of course, understand the placebo effect and although I don't think that's why it helped, I will not discount the possibility.

On the other hand, two of our horses and one of our dogs, along with a number of equine and canine companions of several friends, do not share that understanding and yet they were very clearly helped.

_

I had forgotten about animals, as a friend of mine use to take his dog, with positive results, one of the reasons I gave it a shot.

[RWebb]

The scientific literature on acupuncture (and meditation) clearly shows efficacy beyond mere placebo effect. That was controlled for in the published studies.



If this thread deteriorates tho, I have some fun woo-wwo pics I can post.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by Ziggythecat

Walked in smoking 1 1/2 packs a day, 12 years ago
1 treatment.
Last cig.
No Nicotine withdrawal...no desire to smoke

My brother smoked from his teens well into his early 50's. At his peak, he was smoking almost 3 packs a day. One treatment and never smoked again. His girlfriend had several treatments and couldn't kick the habit. I believe that the person wanting to quit is a key in the success or failure of acupuncture for smoking cessation.

[gregpark]

Originally Posted by Tobra

They have been doing it for thousands of years. If it did not work, they would have stopped.

I agree. From what I understand acupuncture/pressure stimulates specific nerves to alleviate pain but is not a remedy to fix the problem. It made a knee injury feel a lot better for me

[john70t]

I once had acupuncture from an old Japanese man who was a WW2 surgeon. A master.
His skin was flawless like a teenager. No blue veins. No liver spots. Nothing.
He moved like a young man. Better than me.

The needles used were very thin and a tube was used to guide them.
No electricity or spinning or other manipulation.

He showed me how the needles would easily bend and fail to penetrate healthy skin even with the tube.
In the places that were damaged, the needle popped right in deep.

[unclebilly]

I had acupuncture and cupping 3 or 4 years ago for a bad back injury. Both had an effect.

The physiotherapist explained that the injury from the needles (and the cupping) draws white blood cells to the injury site and this assists with the healing.

I’d actually like to get this done again for my tennis elbow.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by IROC

I vote BS. One of the problems is that it is hard to do double-blind studies as it is difficult to give the patients a placebo when the treatment is sticking needles into your body. In fact, one term I've seen applied to it is that it is a "theatrical placebo".

When you read the underlying "logic" behind how acupuncture is supposed to work, it is obvious that it is a scam. "Qi" and "meridians"? Really?

So close minded.

Not understanding how it works does not make it BS. Was a time we thought illness was due to evil spirits. We still don't understand how gravity works, does that make it nonsense?

[Tishabet]

Originally Posted by Tobra

So close minded.

Not understanding how it works does not make it BS. Was a time we thought illness was due to evil spirits. We still don't understand how gravity works, does that make it nonsense?

+1, I've never tried acupuncture but I know people with similar stories to those in this thread. The "we don't understand how it works but it works" thing is also not limited to eastern medicine... lithium for example has obvious effect but we don't know why.

[ted]

Wife did it for a while, so she dragged me in for 5 sessions.
I tried it didn't do anything for me.
The 3 needles that helped my Sciatica were the epidural shots in my lower back, instant relief.
Imho any alternative medicine that gives someone in pain comfort is ok with me.
Even if it's not proven if it gives a patient hope not my place to contest it.