Best Super-Automatic Espresso machine to make lattes?

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I am sorry to have to inform that my Salvatore joined the union and no longer worked right after 12 years of daily use. The options were to fix or replace. To replace that machine is now 2800 and is a custom order, hand built in America machine (my name is inside that machine for christ sake), or find something else? Since it is all commercial grade components it really was a fix it solution. Problem was who to trust in LV or send it back to Salvatore. I tried a large restaurant equipment repair company and for 300 it still didn't work right..my distrust was justified.

So it went back to Salvatore where he had a backlog of repairs and was extremely busy building new machines. So it sat for 5 months. They called last week with an estimate.there goes most of my Stimulus check..I said go ahead and by Saturday emailed it was ready. It has had a complete refurbishment of all the major moving parts..and is essentially a new machine again.

the major problem unbeknownst to me was that RO water causes internal corrosion of the copper boiler and lines.. It is pure water which seeks content so it leaches the metal. The rest was preventative after long years of use. LV has very very hard water at 16 grains, where water using appliances have shortened life spans. So water filtration is a must to avoid scale buildup, just not RO.

So now I have to use non RO bottled water like the recommended Crystal Geyser or go with a filtration system like BWT which in of itself has a much shorter cartridge lifespan because of the water hardness. Regardless of which way I go I do look forward to getting my Salvatore back in operation again for some good Joesph.

After using up a small cheapo Krups, using a Bodum SS I finally wound up using a Corning Ware 6 cup peculator all found on the cheap at the Thrifts..

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Originally Posted by red-beard

I repaired one of my Jura Capressor units. They are not that bad once you open them up. Not like a 911 engine or transmission.

Most of the time, water leaks are just bad o-rings. And most of the brew group issues could have been prevented with an occasional internal vacuum and lubrication.

I have 2 Juras..an Impressiva S8 and F10...both for under 60 total. I never fooled with them to find out exactly what they needed..both work at least minimally.

[red-beard]

Internally, most of the Jura units are the same or very similar. They are differentiated by the features, looks and cost. 'Cause you know if you spend more it HAS to be better...

[RWebb]

I get the impression that Jura units overall are better built (from online research w/o seeing any of these things).

But I dunno about the outboard milk frother. That makes we want to go with a Gaggia.

I haven't seen the Saeco brand listed at either of the big places that sell online.

[Gogar]

the major problem unbeknownst to me was that RO water causes internal corrosion of the copper boiler and lines.. It is pure water which seeks content so it leaches the metal. [/QUOTE]

I've replaced the copper heating elements in my simonelli twice for the reason you describe. you pull them out after a few years and although they still work, the metal is surprisingly soft and barely holds together.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by RWebb

I get the impression that Jura units overall are better built (from online research w/o seeing any of these things).

But I dunno about the outboard milk frother. That makes we want to go with a Gaggia.

I haven't seen the Saeco brand listed at either of the big places that sell online.

Whole Latte Love has 1 model, but it is $1899

[cstreit]

Originally Posted by Gogar

the major problem unbeknownst to me was that RO water causes internal corrosion of the copper boiler and lines.. It is pure water which seeks content so it leaches the metal.

Well that’s interesting. We’ve been using RO water in ours for some time...

[red-beard]

Honestly, RO water is not good for people. You need calcium.

[Bill Douglas]

Tabs, could you feed it bottled water from the supermarket. Those big cheap four or five gallon containers of natural spring water.

My Vibiemme needed a few new bits too so I've started looking after it better by doing proper two monthly deep cleans. Mind you, it's only eaten through one heater element in 15 years.

[Gogar]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Whole Latte Love has 1 model, but it is $1899

Gaggia / Saeco / Phillips are identical machines, rebadged.

[greglepore]

The RO water issue is pretty well known in the coffee geek community. It also messes with water level sensors, which requires minerals to work. For that reason, folks that don't want to use tap often use the big carboys of spring water.

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Originally Posted by Gogar

the major problem unbeknownst to me was that RO water causes internal corrosion of the copper boiler and lines.. It is pure water which seeks content so it leaches the metal.

I've replaced the copper heating elements in my simonelli twice for the reason you describe. you pull them out after a few years and although they still work, the metal is surprisingly soft and barely holds together.

[/QUOTE]

It took 12 years for it to not run right.

The Boiler on the Salvatore is copper as well as all the lines. There is no plastic in a Salvatore except for the Reservoir

As you all can figure I am quite enamored of the Salvatore..when I bought it back in late 2003 Whole Lattte Love was a distributor for them...their description was glowing.. It is a custom order, hand-built machine from Buellton, CA. using all commercial parts..what is not to like.

Back then who knew about RO water..

https://youtu.be/OAaNWrVlveU

[red-beard]

The oxidation potential in RO or demineralized water is quite high. Typically, you use a resistant form of Stainless Steel.

The other issue: When the copper leaches, it goes "somewhere". That somewhere is in your coffee. And that copper ends up in YOU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity

Acute symptoms of copper poisoning by ingestion include vomiting, hematemesis (vomiting of blood), hypotension (low blood pressure), melena (black "tarry" feces), coma, jaundice (yellowish pigmentation of the skin), and gastrointestinal distress.[1] Individuals with glucose-6-phosphate deficiency may be at increased risk of hematologic effects of copper.[1] Hemolytic anemia resulting from the treatment of burns with copper compounds is infrequent.[1]

Chronic (long-term) copper exposure can damage the liver and kidneys.[2] Mammals have efficient mechanisms to regulate copper stores such that they are generally protected from excess dietary copper levels.[2][3]

Those same protection mechanisms can cause milder symptoms, which are often misdiagnosed as psychiatric disorders. There is a lot of research on the function of the Cu/Zn ratio in neurological, endocrinological, and psychological conditions.[4][5][6] Many of the substances that protect us from excess copper perform important functions in our neurological and endocrine systems, leading to diagnostic difficulties. When they are used to bind copper in the plasma, to prevent it from being absorbed in the tissues, their own function may go unfulfilled. Such symptoms often include mood swings, irritability, depression, fatigue, excitation, difficulty focusing, and feeling out of control.

[aigel]

Not an expert on RO systems, but a good one should have a re-minerailzation step after you practically made DI water. I lived in a rental once that had a very elaborate RO system - the owners were esoteric folks that were afraid of traces of medication and what not in the drinking water. There was a 2 million year old piece of coral reef in the remineralization unit - calcium long built up before human presence. I know all this because the unit broke and the service guy came by to fix it and educate me at the same time. After all that, I decided to just install a carbon filter in my house.

G

[red-beard]

The last place I saw an RO home system, I do not remember seeing a re-mineralization system. I always wondered if the people with RO systems ended up with osteoporosis.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by red-beard

The oxidation potential in RO or demineralized water is quite high. Typically, you use a resistant form of Stainless Steel.

The other issue: When the copper leaches, it goes "somewhere". That somewhere is in your coffee. And that copper ends up in YOU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity

Then it is no wonder why I fall in love with copper pennies..ohhh you are so beautiful my love..

[JavaBrewer]

You don't use CA tap water in your espresso machines. Period.

[mjohnson]

Originally Posted by red-beard

The last place I saw an RO home system, I do not remember seeing a re-mineralization system. I always wondered if the people with RO systems ended up with osteoporosis.

We're stuck on the side of a volcano and have so much silicates in our water that you need a hammer to clean your glass shower doors. Ten years in now with RO and the Jura and the fridge are still OK. Interesting on re-mineralization though -- it's worth a look. I'd really rather the expensive toys not poop the bed...

[Gogar]

Well, I don't know the chemistry; maybe there's some chemist types in here

Tabsys machine has a brass boiler with a copper heating element that directly contacts the water and sits in the water at all times, regardless of use.

The thermoblock-style boilers (like In your Jura) are aluminum and stainless, and generally contact the water much less; they act more like an on-demand water heater in your home would.


So maybe it's less of an issue.

The copper heating element I replaced a few times in my simonelli sits directly in the water, all the time. So maybe it's a different story or chemical reaction.

[RWebb]

tap water here is great - the utility co. wins national awards for it, so I'm good there

a guy at Whole Lotta Latte Love or what ever that place is named told me the machines are very reliable as long as you clean them (and that lots of people don't)

- what's the consensus on that reliability claim?