Karma, it’s a b!tch.

[upsscott]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

All I'm suggesting, Denis, is that the whole "thug life" sub culture that has permeated much of our country's young black population may have been at least somewhat responsible for this young man's possession of a gun and his eagerness to demonstrate how tough he was by threatening someone with that gun. We see this "thug life" celebrated in their music, their choices of role models and, ultimately, in their behavior that results in a violent death rate six times higher than everyone else's. Could this young man's behavior have been an attempt to emulate this "thug life"? I think that is entirely possible. That's all I'm saying. Too many of his contemporaries are dying in a similar fashion. It's worth exploring the reasons for this.

Curious, do you know anything about the dead kids backstory? Was this kid a “Thug” as you say? I mean Texas is most definitely an open carry state so him possessing a gun is literally encouraged there. I’m not condoning pulling a gun on somebody, not in the least, but I’ve had people partially open their door or move over a bit when I split lanes. It provokes a serious amount of anger. Would I pull a gun out personally? Hell no. This kid may have been a hot head with an anger problem and for that he died. Does that make him a gang banger or a thug? It’s hard to say. If he were white would he still be a thug? Honest questions.

[upsscott]

Originally Posted by oldE

Might it be fair to say the pistol represented power to this (and many other) young man? He chose to exercise his power and met with a greater power.
It seems too many people suck at conflict resolution. We see it to an extent here on this board when misunderstandings quickly escalate into rage and frustration due to separation and the limited communication tools at our disposal.
Road rage and going postal are manifestations of individuals inability to deal with slights or injuries (real or perceived) in a constructive way. So is Ban Island. The scale is vastly different, but the principle remains.
Best
Les

Spot on. There’s the problem.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by upsscott

Curious, do you know anything about the dead kids backstory? Was this kid a “Thug” as you say? I mean Texas is most definitely an open carry state so him possessing a gun is literally encouraged there. I’m not condoning pulling a gun on somebody, not in the least, but I’ve had people partially open their door or move over a bit when I split lanes. It provokes a serious amount of anger. Would I pull a gun out personally? Hell no. This kid may have been a hot head with an anger problem and for that he died. Does that make him a gang banger or a thug? It’s hard to say. If he were white would he still be a thug? Honest questions.

Pure speculation on my part, meant to engender discussion. I guess many would prefer to stick to the very simplistic "road rage" explanation, and celebrate the "good guy's" so-called "victory" over him. I'm simply trying to dig deeper than that, down to why this young man made that fateful decision. What influenced him in such a way that he felt this was the answer to what just happened to him.

To me, this does not represent a single, isolated tragic incident. Not when I look at the statistics that demonstrate that young men of his race are six times more likely to die a violent death than any other race. I think we do them all a disservice if we don't take opportunities like this, as tragic as they are, to dig deeper, to do a "root cause analysis".

And, yes, Texas is an "open carry" state, but I believe one must be 21 years of age. He was 19, so I believe he was not lawfully armed. That in and of itself demonstrates a willingness to violate a fairly serious law. Does that in and of itself definitively identify him as a "gang banger"? Personally, I don't think so, but it is a pretty strong indication.

And would a white kid still be a "thug"? Underaged and armed, behaving in that manner, I would say "yes". And I would be asking what led to his choice to live the "thug life". Broken home? No father? Poor choice in role models? All of the same questions, for the most part, but with one important difference: black pop culture seems to celebrate this "thug life", where other races' pop cultures do not. I think they are valid questions regardless of race.

But, again, we get back to the notion that the black kid is six times more likely to wind up like this than the white kid. If we ever want to have an honest discussion as to just why that is, guys like you need to get a lot more comfortable with discussing this in a dispassionate manner. Right now, discussing any sort of a racial component as a contributing factor appears to just freak you out, to the point where you abandon any efforts at rational discussion. We'll never get anywhere like that.

[upsscott]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Pure speculation on my part, meant to engender discussion. I guess many would prefer to stick to the very simplistic "road rage" explanation, and celebrate the "good guy's" so-called "victory" over him. I'm simply trying to dig deeper than that, down to why this young man made that fateful decision. What influenced him in such a way that he felt this was the answer to what just happened to him.

To me, this does not represent a single, isolated tragic incident. Not when I look at the statistics that demonstrate that young men of his race are six times more likely to die a violent death than any other race. I think we do them all a disservice if we don't take opportunities like this, as tragic as they are, to dig deeper, to do a "root cause analysis".

And, yes, Texas is an "open carry" state, but I believe one must be 21 years of age. He was 19, so I believe he was not lawfully armed. That in and of itself demonstrates a willingness to violate a fairly serious law. Does that in and of itself definitively identify him as a "gang banger"? Personally, I don't think so, but it is a pretty strong indication.

And would a white kid still be a "thug"? Underaged and armed, behaving in that manner, I would say "yes". And I would be asking what led to his choice to live the "thug life". Broken home? No father? Poor choice in role models? All of the same questions, for the most part, but with one important difference: black pop culture seems to celebrate this "thug life", where other races' pop cultures do not. I think they are valid questions regardless of race.

But, again, we get back to the notion that the black kid is six times more likely to wind up like this than the white kid. If we ever want to have an honest discussion as to just why that is, guys like you need to get a lot more comfortable with discussing this in a dispassionate manner. Right now, discussing any sort of a racial component as a contributing factor appears to just freak you out, to the point where you abandon any efforts at rational discussion. We'll never get anywhere like that.

Wait, I’m not being rational? If that is meant towards me personally I apologize. I like the discussion. I don’t agree with you that it’s a black vs everyone else thing. I think it speaks to a socioeconomic condition that is happening. Role models who glorify violence may have an effect, I don’t know. I think the younger generation has issues with instant gratification due to technology and social media. I personally believe and I have zero proof to back this up but Social Media is tearing away at our society on so many levels. I see this as a possible culprit that leads too these situations.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by upsscott

Wait, I’m not being rational? If that is meant towards me personally I apologize.

My apologies - "you" was meant in the plural. It seems we are unable to have a rational discussion whenever we start discussing differences between races. There are some, and they are not negatives, just differences. Except for this one in particular. It's an outliers, and it is resulting in tragic, needless deaths all out of proportion to other races.

Originally Posted by upsscott

I like the discussion. I don’t agree with you that it’s a black vs everyone else thing. I think it speaks to a socioeconomic condition that is happening.

It's not a black vs. anyone kind of a thing. Not in the least. That's not what I'm trying to say. I'm sorry it's coming across that way - that is certainly not my intent.

We have already agreed that socio-economic situations contribute to this. I have also pointed out that other races have populations in similar socio-economic situations, with the attendant increase in crime. But - and this is a big "but" - young black men kill one another at a rate six times that of any other race. In other words, other races with populations stuck in the same socio-economic schitt hole do not resort to murder at anywhere near the same rate. Again, I think we need to study why, and begin to correct this.

Originally Posted by upsscott

Role models who glorify violence may have an effect, I don’t know. I think the younger generation has issues with instant gratification due to technology and social media. I personally believe and I have zero proof to back this up but Social Media is tearing away at our society on so many levels. I see this as a possible culprit that leads too these situations.

Absolutely agreed. Social media, with all of its promises, has turned out to be a terrible influence to many people. Especially young people. Of all races. I'm not sure what to do about that. But, then again, we see one group of young people as the outlier, with significantly higher rates of violent crime and murder than the rest. All races have equal access and exposure to social media, so why is one so significantly "leading the pack" in this regard?

And, yeah, role models. While there are some of other races (that ass hole Eminem comes immediately to mind), we see an unusually large number of black entertainers, sports figures, and other celebrities hawking this "thug life" angle in a very cynical effort to make money off of these kids. Far more so than any other race.

We need to be able to have an open, honest, dispassionate, rational discussion about the factors contributing to the murder rate and overall violent crime rate in our poorer, inner city black neighborhoods. We are not able to do that right now. Far too many people are more worried about how they appear to their peers, being terrified of being judged as a "racist", if they say what needs to be said. And meanwhile young blacks are dying violent deaths all out of proportion to their numbers, while while "woke" whites are more interested in virtue signaling one another than they are interested in helping solve the problem. I find that both very sad, and very frustrating.

[gacook]

Let's not forget that you cannot legally own a handgun at 19. Just saying.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by gacook

Let's not forget that you cannot legally own a handgun at 19. Just saying.

You sure about that? I know you can't buy one, but...

I owned three before I was able to buy one, or the ammo for them. Ditto for my Marlin .30-30 .... bought the rifle at 18 ....couldn't buy the ammo .

[Jeff Higgins]

Age restrictions vary state by state and by firearms type, but I believe 21 years of age is pretty universal for handgun ownership. The age at which one can purchase ammo varies as well, not just by state, but by ammo type. Many states restrict the purchase of "handgun" ammo to those over 21.

Of course there really are no clear delineations, with many rifles firing "handgun" ammo. This started way back in the late 1800's, by the way, with the Winchester .44 WCF being available in their 1873 lever gun and in Colt's Peacemaker revolver. But, of course, lawmakers have nary a clue...

My sons have both owned .22 rifles since their sixth birthdays, and centerfire hunting rifles since their 12th. Times have changed, but I was buying .22 ammo at my local Ernst Hardware when I was ten. Something changed, though, and by the time I was 12 or 13, I needed a note from my parents. Then it got classified as "handgun ammo" and I had to pass a background check to buy .22 ammo. That has since been rescinded, and we no longer require a background check for every box of "handgun" ammo.

The point is, this is all over the map, varying a good deal state by state. And not a god damned bit of it will ever keep guys like young Mr. Gray from acquiring a handgun and the ammo for it. These efforts have proven to be entirely misplaced. My neighborhood was awash with guns and ammo and not a single one of us ever considered shooting anyone.

[flipper35]

18 can posses a handgun in Texas. Can't buy through a dealer but private sales are fine.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by flipper35

18 can posses a handgun in Texas. Can't buy through a dealer but private sales are fine.

Yep... and not just in Texas.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by KC911

You sure about that? I know you can't buy one, but...

I owned three before I was able to buy one, or the ammo for them. Ditto for my Marlin .30-30 .... bought the rifle at 18 ....couldn't buy the ammo .

I think things are different for shotguns, rifles and hand guns, but I'm not certain.

[pmax]

So, this is up on utube with 40K+ views.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by pmax

So, this is up on utube with 40K+ views.

I don't have an hour and a half to listen to that idiot, but man, was that ever painful for the ten minutes I tried. That, and the comments. Most of it unintelligible, displaying a profound absence of any sort of logical thought process. And talk about butchering the English language - most of it at a third or fourth grade level at best. Hell, if I want that kind of nonsense, I'll just read our own beloved cockerpunk, but not for an hour and a half.

[McLovin]

One city, one weekend, amazing.

“ At least 100 people were shot over the July Fourth weekend in Chicago — including 18 people who died, ABC7 Chicago reported.”

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

was that ever painful for the ten minutes I tried.

You made it to 10 mins?!? That's impressive. I think I made it to 3. He hadn't said much, but I think I could see where he was going, and I wasn't impressed with anything that I'd heard.

[Scott Douglas]

Originally Posted by McLovin

One city, one weekend, amazing.

“ At least 100 people were shot over the July Fourth weekend in Chicago — including 18 people who died, ABC7 Chicago reported.”

Doesn't Chicago usually have a higher 'success' rate than that?

[upsscott]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

My apologies - "you" was meant in the plural. It seems we are unable to have a rational discussion whenever we start discussing differences between races. There are some, and they are not negatives, just differences. Except for this one in particular. It's an outliers, and it is resulting in tragic, needless deaths all out of proportion to other races.



It's not a black vs. anyone kind of a thing. Not in the least. That's not what I'm trying to say. I'm sorry it's coming across that way - that is certainly not my intent.

We have already agreed that socio-economic situations contribute to this. I have also pointed out that other races have populations in similar socio-economic situations, with the attendant increase in crime. But - and this is a big "but" - young black men kill one another at a rate six times that of any other race. In other words, other races with populations stuck in the same socio-economic schitt hole do not resort to murder at anywhere near the same rate. Again, I think we need to study why, and begin to correct this.



Absolutely agreed. Social media, with all of its promises, has turned out to be a terrible influence to many people. Especially young people. Of all races. I'm not sure what to do about that. But, then again, we see one group of young people as the outlier, with significantly higher rates of violent crime and murder than the rest. All races have equal access and exposure to social media, so why is one so significantly "leading the pack" in this regard?

And, yeah, role models. While there are some of other races (that ass hole Eminem comes immediately to mind), we see an unusually large number of black entertainers, sports figures, and other celebrities hawking this "thug life" angle in a very cynical effort to make money off of these kids. Far more so than any other race.

We need to be able to have an open, honest, dispassionate, rational discussion about the factors contributing to the murder rate and overall violent crime rate in our poorer, inner city black neighborhoods. We are not able to do that right now. Far too many people are more worried about how they appear to their peers, being terrified of being judged as a "racist", if they say what needs to be said. And meanwhile young blacks are dying violent deaths all out of proportion to their numbers, while while "woke" whites are more interested in virtue signaling one another than they are interested in helping solve the problem. I find that both very sad, and very frustrating.

I agree with much of what you say, not all, but that’s ok. I feel that the problem is generational more than racial. As another poster said so well, the younger generation is lacking basic coping skills. This is where I agree with you. Combine poor coping skills with social media, role models who promote a violent lifestyle, and lack of a supportive family unit all contribute to this behavior.

[A930Rocket]

Why does the media always show an innocent looking, young person when they’re accused of certain things?

The motorcycle rider.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by upsscott

I agree with much of what you say, not all, but that’s ok. I feel that the problem is generational more than racial. As another poster said so well, the younger generation is lacking basic coping skills. This is where I agree with you. Combine poor coping skills with social media, role models who promote a violent lifestyle, and lack of a supportive family unit all contribute to this behavior.

It sounds like we are mostly in agreement. It appears that the only aspect upon which we continue to disagree is the racial component. Everything you say here holds true for all races - there are populations found in all of them that are burdened just as you describe.

So, with all of these factors being equal amongst certain populations of each and every race, how do you account for the disparity in violence? How do you explain the fact that blacks murder one another at a rate six times higher than anyone else? We have gotten this far in this discussion, I have asked you to account for this on a number of occasions, and you have completely ignored it.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I don't have an hour and a half to listen to that idiot, but man, was that ever painful for the ten minutes I tried. That, and the comments. Most of it unintelligible, displaying a profound absence of any sort of logical thought process. And talk about butchering the English language - most of it at a third or fourth grade level at best. Hell, if I want that kind of nonsense, I'll just read our own beloved cockerpunk, but not for an hour and a half.

In summary, he says it was a coverup. I highly doubt that is the case but it was still quite revealing of what a different perspective of the incident looks like when seen thru an alternative view of the world we live in, with the caveat that how much is just pandering to his expected audience is unknown. Unlike the speaker, I do believe Gray blocked the freeway with his bike but his point about the lack of details in what the police said is reasonable I thought. I wonder if the police report with testimonies from multiple witnesses I assume were interviewed will be consistent with the other shooter's version of exactly what went down.

Originally Posted by masraum

You made it to 10 mins?!? That's impressive. I think I made it to 3. He hadn't said much, but I think I could see where he was going, and I wasn't impressed with anything that I'd heard.

Try 1.5x speed.