Does ethanol in gas really reduce emissions?

[otto_kretschmer]

Just another bribe for votes. This time farmers and the AG industry.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by JackDidley

Not sure anyone on here has ever tried E85. 85% ethanol, not the 10% in typical pump gas. I have. I used it in my Corvette for 3 years , about 30,000 miles. The consumption is not 50% more. It was 30%. The octane gain is real. I never got spark knock.The fuel lines did not decompose. The injectors were fine. The main issue I had was getting it. Thats why I switched back to premium gas. Not available everywhere. I was not interested in emissions or the farmers. I just wanted the octane.

Yep. I run E85 in my F250 and I've found the cost savings vs drop in mileage to pencil out enough to make E85 somewhat desirable.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by Arizona_928

Timing?

That's all set through the motronic. I have an onboard wideband 02/AFR gauge. It's the only reason I know that there is a difference. The ethanol blend fuel tends to burn a bit leaner when I run it than pure gas. I've just never asked anyone why because I was afraid they'd think I was nuts or stupid.

[rusnak]

I want to say, maybe in the early 1980s there was a tech article in Road & Track about oxigenated fuel, and how the Fed EPA might mandate it's use in order to force vehicles to run lean. I was maybe 12 or so when I read it, so I didn't fully understand all of it, but I was aghast at the fact that they would mess with the fuel that you buy, making it less efficient.

And here we are today with the (literally) pisswater gasoline that will destroy your vehicle.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by JackDidley

Not sure anyone on here has ever tried E85. 85% ethanol, not the 10% in typical pump gas. I have. I used it in my Corvette for 3 years , about 30,000 miles. The consumption is not 50% more. It was 30%. The octane gain is real. I never got spark knock.The fuel lines did not decompose. The injectors were fine. The main issue I had was getting it. Thats why I switched back to premium gas. Not available everywhere. I was not interested in emissions or the farmers. I just wanted the octane.

You did not use it long enough to cause problems is what you are saying.

Originally Posted by Superman

Yes.

Why is ethanol in our gas?
Fuel ethanol is used to enhance the octane rating of gasoline. To put that simply, higher octane gas resists detonation, so it burns rather than exploding. But raising the octane level of gasoline is expensive; that’s why premium fuel costs more than regular. Adding ethanol reduces the tendency of low-grade gasoline to detonate, enabling our national fleet to run on crappier gas.

No, it was not added to gas to help consumers.

Again, nothing in this is correct, that is not why ethanol was added to fuel, no matter how many times you say so.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by cabmando

That's all set through the motronic. I have an onboard wideband 02/AFR gauge. It's the only reason I know that there is a difference. The ethanol blend fuel tends to burn a bit leaner when I run it than pure gas. I've just never asked anyone why because I was afraid they'd think I was nuts or stupid.

Welllll....look I am not picking on you. But all an AFR meter does is measure the percentage oxygen in your fuel, and it extrapolates the fuel mixture calculation from that. It does not measure exhaust gasses such as CO or NOX.

OK, so your ECU or "Motronic" (Bosch L-Jetronic in other words) will take over and go into closed loop once the O2 sensor heats up. You'll notice that it will lean or richen the fuel mixuture until it gets to .99 to 1.01 Lambda. It does not allow your vehicle to run lean or rich. If your AFR is showing a lean mixture, then your fuel injection system is broken. I wrote a quite lengthy description of all this on Rennlist way back about 12 or 14 years ago.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by drcoastline

I don't know, but I can tell you it ruins a lot of $h!t.

Yes it does

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by rusnak

Welllll....look I am not picking on you. But all an AFR meter does is measure the percentage oxygen in your fuel, and it extrapolates the fuel mixture calculation from that. It does not measure exhaust gasses such as CO or NOX.

OK, so your ECU or "Motronic" (Bosch L-Jetronic in other words) will take over and go into closed loop once the O2 sensor heats up. You'll notice that it will lean or richen the fuel mixuture until it gets to .99 to 1.01 Lambda. It does not allow your vehicle to run lean or rich. If your AFR is showing a lean mixture, then your fuel injection system is broken. I wrote a quite lengthy description of all this on Rennlist way back about 12 or 14 years ago.

I don't have an 02 sensor. I run a custom tune. There's nothing wrong with my injection system. It's running in tip top order. No air leaks, no over or under feeding injectors, they've all been flow checked. No exhaust leaks. All gaskets have been recently replaced after the heads were rebuilt. It's strictly fuel dependent when it goes from 13.6-13.8 AFR to 14.3 or a little better.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by cabmando

I don't have an 02 sensor.

OK. So your Motronic is in limp mode, as in running on stored maps ?

[cabmandone]

It always runs on stored maps. With the 02 sensor or without.. it's running on stored fuel maps.

What I mean is, If I'm at WOT I'm running on the WOT fuel map that changes the AFR to around 12.9-13 At tip in I might go from 14's down into the mid 13 range At idle I'm set at around 14.2 but when I put pure gas in, for some reason that number drops into the range I've mentioned.

[JackDidley]

Originally Posted by Tobra

You did not use it long enough to cause problems is what you are saying.

No, that is not what I am saying. How long does it take ?

[cabmandone]

I didn't know Vettes were flex fuel vehicles! So if nothing else comes from this thread, at least I've learned that.

[JackDidley]

Originally Posted by cabmando

I didn't know Vettes were flex fuel vehicles! So if nothing else comes from this thread, at least I've learned that.

Mine was not flexfuel. I put in bigger injectors and tuned the ecm myself.

[cabmandone]

Interesting. I guess I've never looked into what makes a flex fuel vehicle different from a non flex fuel vehicle.

[JackDidley]

Originally Posted by cabmando

Interesting. I guess I've never looked into what makes a flex fuel vehicle different from a non flex fuel vehicle.

Not that much. My car was not a true flex vehicle. It was either premium gas or e85. I simply switched programs as needed. All one really needs is bigger injectors and a bigger fuel pump. I already had the big pump.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by cabmando

It always runs on stored maps. With the 02 sensor or without.. it's running on stored fuel maps.

What I mean is, If I'm at WOT I'm running on the WOT fuel map that changes the AFR to around 12.9-13 At tip in I might go from 14's down into the mid 13 range At idle I'm set at around 14.2 but when I put pure gas in, for some reason that number drops into the range I've mentioned.

I see. If you have the O2 sensor hooked up, then the ECU will recognize it and run in closed loop. It'll take over. The only maps it uses in normal operation would be the cold start up, and WOT. WOT always uses a batch fire mode, with pretty much all injectors firing continuously. You could look into a performance chip, and run it with the O2 sensor so you get the best mixture for you custom tailored to your preferences.

[manbridge 74]

Bosch Motronic is unable to run closed loop at WOT.

Oxygen sensor has no input, uses preset maps to fuel the engine. In stock form you will find that it’s a fairly rich AFR.

I recall when oxygenated fuels first came out. Some dyno runs with sport bikes showed an increase in power. You could get disqualified in racing using pump gas vs high octane race gas if they were fuel testing that weekend.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by manbridge 74

Bosch Motronic is unable to run closed loop at WOT.

Oxygen sensor has no input, uses preset maps to fuel the engine. In stock form you will find that it’s a fairly rich AFR.

Exactly right. At cold start up, and at WOT it runs pre-set maps. It also does not have short term fuel trim. That came later.

[chapo]

My F150 that was Flex Fuel would go from 17 MPG to 13 on Ethanol. Not cheaper in the long run at all

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by Superman

I've never heard of ethanol as a strategy for reducing emissions. Ethanol is added to gas because it is a less expensive way to bump octane up.

no it's added as well as it's a closed cO2 cycle

1 fossil fuel is stored carbon in the earth
2 dug or pumped up..
3 burnt to release CO2 in the atmosphere
ENDprogram

1Ethanol is grown on a field, absorbes CO2
2turned to ethanol
3burnt to release CO2 in the atmosphere
4 Go to 1

it's BS, but ok, that's the concept