NEED HELP!! saturn outlook 3.6

[T77911S]

i bought an outlook. it needed timing chains. PO got as far as removing the intake and valve covers.
i put in new chains and VVT gears. everything is lined up. even used cam holder tools for doing gears.
started but it runs horribly. it wont idle, i can usually hold it at around 3k but still misses.

main codes i get are for random miss fire. usually 2,4 and 6 but sometimes others.

here is the kicker!!
fuel pressure is 1600-1700 psi. (direct injection) should be around 800.
BUT, no fuel pressure codes!!!!

new battery. was hoping the old battery was the issue. new plugs and of course they are black as that much FP will make it run rich.
i pulled the intake back off and the intake ports for 2,4,6 are black and "wet". the others are not.

i dont get the hi FP and no code!!!
i can hear the FP solenoid "clicking" trying to change it.


the car did sit for at least a year. i have thought about bad gas as it does not smell quite right but then the hi FP.

[asphaltgambler]

I'd start with measuring cranking compression, then report back here.

[T77911S]

the pressure builds pretty quick
it may start at 60psi if it has been sitting which is the supply pressure.
once its been running the pressure may be over 2000psi with the engine off

[Tobra]

Suburu Outback maybe?

I think engine out is the ticket for timing chains on those

[oldE]

This is a wild arsed guess from someone who has never worked on a Saturn, but is it possible there is a sticking check valve in the system and the code is only triggered by low pressures?

Best
Les

[T77911S]

timing chains were no big deal. everyone complained about room but after changing 2 turbos on a bmw 535i this was like working out in a field. it was actually rather interesting with 3 chains and 4 cams.

i have been learning about direct injection.
it has a mechanical hi pressure pump that runs off the cam. it can produce pressures up to 2900psi.
this car is looking for 500-800 psi but i am seeing 1300 to about 1700.
its also a return less system. that is no fuel return to the tank.
the pressure is controlled by a solenoid in the fuel pump that is controlled by the ECM.

it has GM 3.6 in it. this engine was used in several other cars.

there is a code for pressure too hi.
what could tell it have a pressure that hi.
O2 sensor? but then would i get an O2 sensor code.
i may unplug the O2 sensor and see what it does. maybe it will go into a default fuel setting.



i did a compression test. 240psi!!! on all 6.
heck, my race car only hits 200-210.

[T77911S]

HAAAA!

O2 sensor!!
the code reader i was using is a cheap one, mine was stolen. i took a quick look at one of the O2 sensors (i think it was an O2 sensor) and the voltage was like .1v
if the ECM thinks its very lean then it would raise the FP to richen it up. thats why no FP code.
there is a code for FP out of expected FP range.

[oldE]

Great detective work.
Amazing what a f'ed up mess a sensor failure can make.

Best
Les

[T77911S]

well i dont think the O2s are the problem although i will still replace them.

when cold the system is in open loop and the O2s are .45v.
with them disconnected they are also default .45v
the FP did move around more. even got down to 1000 psi but its still not running perfect.

i did get another crank sensor fault so i did replace it and it is running better but still not right.
it will even somewhat idle now.

i am thinking pull the old gas out and put in some new.

my mechanic friend suggested swapping injectors but i dont want to go that far as you are suppose to replace lines when you remove them. i need to research this more.

im still baffled
about ready to order all 4 O2s, fuel pump and maybe cam sensors

[masraum]

I hope it was really cheap! Since the PO had it apart, but didn't get farther along, I'm sure it was. I did once testdrive a Saturn Vue that had the V-6. It was surprisingly torque and had quite the growl (was very surprising).

[T77911S]

1500.
very clean nice car.

what about the catalytic converter.
it has baffled me why the intake port is wet and black.
could the back pressure be pushing the gasses back up the intake.

how do i confirm the cat is clogged.

they are cheap. less than 300.

[aigel]

Originally Posted by T77911S

i am thinking pull the old gas out and put in some new.
...
about ready to order all 4 O2s, fuel pump and maybe cam sensors
...

YES ... that was going to be my strong suggestion if there are any doubts on the gas
and
NO ... wait before you buy a bunch of sensors. Why would all that be bad?

You won't believe what old gas can do. I'd make sure you have fresh gas, all the way into the injectors and then see what happens. Stuff turns to vinegar pretty quick these days, half a year without stabilizer will do it!

[T77911S]

i ran it without the front cat. it was hard to keep running but when it was it seemed smother. no codes but not sure if i ran it long enough to get codes

looking at an aftermarket set of all 3 cats for about 200


i am thinking gas for it not wanting to run......i hope

[T77911S]

Got cats on
It runs better
Still won’t idle
When I let the Rpms drop the fuel pressure drops
To about 200
When I give it gas it goes up to about 1600

[mattdavis11]

Have you tried cleaning and re-learning the IAC?

[T77911S]

I don’t think it has one.
I believe it uses the throttle body to control idle

Im back to a hi pressure fuel pump.
The pressure drops low when I let the idle come down.

[mattdavis11]

Right you are. The IAC is built into the throttle body. Lots of people have issues with the throttle body on the GM 3.6. My DIL is one. Might try this...

Throttle Position Relearn - SaturnFans.com Forums

[fastfredracing]

Are you 100 % sure you nailed the cam timing ? I was reading a TSB on , I think a VW 2.0, with super high secondary fuel pressures, and the primary cause was the cam timing going out of spec.
Pulling that cover back off to check would be a big back of yuk, but sometimes , you gotta go back in to verify. I forget how it all lines up . Are there notches, or dots, and shiny links ? I have not done one in a few years .

[T77911S]

Yes
Notches on cam gears line up with marks on chains
On right side.
Also used holding tools when changing the cam gears.

Talking to my neighbor that works on diesels and works on direct injection. He confirmed that the fuel pressure should go up when o give it gas.
So I have been having to keep rpms up to keep it running so then the hi fuel pressure.

But when I bring rpm down to around 1500 the pressure drops to about 300.
Too low.
Now I am back to work he fuel pump but maybe it’s just the cam follower is worn.
So I will order both now.