this MMA match makes me chuckle every time

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by speeder

First of all, I've either seen or been in about a million fights. Mostly seen. If there were iPhones back in the '70s and '80s, I could fill a YT channel with actual fights. I went to two huge public high schools with massive parties, a huge, Big10 university with sports teams where I was a bartender at a rowdy bar filled with jocks, went out to bars constantly filled with drunk dudes, worked in the nightclub business in L.A. for years, etc..

A million fights. People who say that, "all fights go to the ground,", have no actual experience in the subject. Some do but most that I've seen do not, unless you count someone dropping to one knee and then getting finished off by their opponent who is still standing. And yes, I've seen dozens of street fights where the victor was throwing hooks/jabs/uppercuts while the loser was swinging at air. That's how every fight went when I was young, other than the ones that were one or two punch knockouts. I've never seen a fight that was won by someone using wrestling moves, though maybe I'm not counting someone getting advantage on the ground and then pounding the other guy with fists. Some fights of course do wind up on the ground but it was the exception back in the day. With the popularity of Jui-jitso now, I'm sure that many street fighters are trying to get the other guy on the ground but that did not happen for the last 200 years up until recently.

My experience as well (mostly observations, actually, from many "front row seats").

In a real fight, with no rules and no referee, they rarely wind up on the ground. In a real fight, neither guy is looking for the other to submit and "tap out", or have the ref stop the fight. They really just want to fk the other guy up as much as possible. You do that by punching, kicking, and otherwise landing blows. Soon as someone grabs onto the other guy, the other guy typically convinces him otherwise by biting him, putting a finger in his eye, grabbing his balls, or any one of a number of things not allowed in MMA.

So, no, it hardly ever winds up rolling around on the ground and examining the lint in each other's navels, like these MMA "fighters" are prone to do. That practice is merely a product of their rules. In a real fight, no rules, no ref, a guy is likely to at least lose an eye trying that kind of nonsense.

[Rodsrsr]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Years ago I saw a clip of a cage fight. Some champion was taking on all customers. A very obese, 6'5" car salesman took the challenge. The salesman had no real fighting experience, just lots of mass. He just took down the champ, laying on top of him and kept hitting him in the head and face. The champ was simply pinned, with all that mass. It was over just about as fast.

LMAO, that's because it was years ago and he didn't know how to grapple. An obese 6'5" untrained guy would have zero chance on the ground against a guy that knew even basic Jiu Jitsu or wrestling.

[Rodsrsr]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

My experience as well (mostly observations, actually, from many "front row seats").

In a real fight, with no rules and no referee, they rarely wind up on the ground. In a real fight, neither guy is looking for the other to submit and "tap out", or have the ref stop the fight. They really just want to fk the other guy up as much as possible. You do that by punching, kicking, and otherwise landing blows. Soon as someone grabs onto the other guy, the other guy typically convinces him otherwise by biting him, putting a finger in his eye, grabbing his balls, or any one of a number of things not allowed in MMA.

So, no, it hardly ever winds up rolling around on the ground and examining the lint in each other's navels, like these MMA "fighters" are prone to do. That practice is merely a product of their rules. In a real fight, no rules, no ref, a guy is likely to at least lose an eye trying that kind of nonsense.

Two untrained people will avoid going to the ground because they wont know what to do. In a real fight a trained BJJ guy will take you down and either full mount ground and pound you or if he's nice he'll just choke you out and you'll wake up wondering what happened. Poking someone in the eye is on par with a woman saying she'll just kick you in the balls as her defense.

[Rodsrsr]

some old school Gracie.

[flipper35]

Not MMA but Muay Thai. Luke in the white shorts is a local kid and this was his debut pro fight. My daughter and I train with him under his dad Dean.

Go to 11:40 or so into the video for the end, fight starts at 5:30. Not much happens early on. There is one uppercut that lifts the opponent a few inches off the ground. Has to be hard on the neck.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Rodsrsr

Two untrained people will avoid going to the ground because they wont know what to do. In a real fight a trained BJJ guy will take you down and either full mount ground and pound you or if he's nice he'll just choke you out and you'll wake up wondering what happened. Poking someone in the eye is on par with a woman saying she'll just kick you in the balls as her defense.

I understand all of that. And yes, poking in the eye, biting, grabbing or punching a guy's balls - all absolutely abhorrent. Well outside Marques of Queensbury rules. An honorable man would never do these things.

But, well - street fighting. We're not talking a couple of tough guys behind the gym in high school, or drunken frat boys on the front lawn, or a couple of drunks in a bar.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by masraum

The funniest bit is the bald dude's stare down. He tried so hard to be crazy boy intimidating then gets stuffed in under two minutes.

[Rodsrsr]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I understand all of that. And yes, poking in the eye, biting, grabbing or punching a guy's balls - all absolutely abhorrent. Well outside Marques of Queensbury rules. An honorable man would never do these things.

But, well - street fighting. We're not talking a couple of tough guys behind the gym in high school, or drunken frat boys on the front lawn, or a couple of drunks in a bar.

But that's my point. No single person is the arbitrator of dirty fighting. The entire point of Jiu Jitsu is to control your opponent, disabling them so they can't poke you the eye or punch you in the balls. Any dirty fighting done to me I can do back to them coupled with 12 years of BJJ. Trying to poke someone in the eye or kick them in the balls is not a legit strategy. That's literally what women say they will do lol.

[Jeff Higgins]

How many street fights have you been in? How many have you seen?

Trained fighters will rarely put themselves in a situation that results in a street fight. The kinds of people who do put themselves in those situations rarely have the discipline nor background to ever find themselves accused of being a "trained fighter".

[Rodsrsr]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

How many street fights have you been in? How many have you seen?

Trained fighters will rarely put themselves in a situation that results in a street fight. The kinds of people who do put themselves in those situations rarely have the discipline nor background to ever find themselves accused of being a "trained fighter".

As a Christian man I don't get into street fights, but if I had to, I would feel better going in as a trained BJJ practitioner vs nothing. Most untrained people will gas out in a few minutes anyway, since they have no concept of pace and are not conditioned.

This is a huge benefit in grappling since its one of the few sports that allows you to spar 100% every day. This element alone would give a trained person a huge advantage.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Rodsrsr

But that's my point. No single person is the arbitrator of dirty fighting. The entire point of Jiu Jitsu is to control your opponent, disabling them so they can't poke you the eye or punch you in the balls. Any dirty fighting done to me I can do back to them coupled with 12 years of BJJ. Trying to poke someone in the eye or kick them in the balls is not a legit strategy. That's literally what women say they will do lol.

If a woman has to defend herself from a man, it's not a "street fight" it's a life or death struggle. Kind of different.

Frankly if I were to find myself in a fight, I'd consider it a life or death struggle, and there would be no rules other than incapacitate the opponent is quickly and completely as possible by whatever means possible.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by masraum

If a woman has to defend herself from a man, it's not a "street fight" it's a life or death struggle. Kind of different.

Frankly if I were to find myself in a fight, I'd consider it a life or death struggle, and there would be no rules other than incapacitate the opponent is quickly and completely as possible by whatever means possible.

It's funny but I've read this exact statement, (or some variation of it), so many times on this board that I've lost count. Always from decent, nonviolent members who've either never been in a fight or at least not since grade school. All of this, "life or death, kill the other guy," stuff.

For me or anyone who has been in fights and has confidence in their ability, it's different in most cases. A while back, I had words with a psycho dude who everyone is afraid of in a public setting. He was intimidating and scaring people and I told him to STFU very loudly. He called me out and I told him that I'd be out in 5 minutes when I was through with my business inside. I also told him that I'd be delighted to fight and that I sort of live for these situations. Ok, I never grew up 100%.

Magically, when I came outside, he was gone. I was glad that I did not actually have to fight him but I was not the least bit scared and I would have won. I know it. It might have been easy and it might have been hard but I would have won. Losing fights sucks so I don't do it. Did I think, "I'm going to have to kill this guy because my life is on the line?" Hell no...GMAFB. I am an old hockey fighter...we would have socked it out and I'm Irish...therefore I win.

As for Jiu Jitsu, I have nothing but respect for that discipline and anyone seriously trained and skilled in that would eat my lunch and choke me out. I have tons of friends who have practiced it for decades, including with Rickson Gracie. But those guys do not stand outside of an AA meeting scaring women, (and some men), or bother anyone, ever. That's how I know 100% I would have won that fight...it could never happen with a trained martial artist.

[DonDavis]

ahem.. I got this

Theres no replacement for displacement! HP will always kill a 210 hp car! My muscle car rules all!!!

...or something of that nature.

btw, 1,000,000 actual fights? riiight.

And Steve's right.

Ya'll carry on.

[flatbutt]

Even when I was a young buck full of vigor if you came at me on the street and I had to make a stand I'd pick up anything at hand with which to hit you. A stick, a brick or a garbage can lid.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Rodsrsr

As a Christian man I don't get into street fights, but if I had to, I would feel better going in as a trained BJJ practitioner vs nothing. Most untrained people will gas out in a few minutes anyway, since they have no concept of pace and are not conditioned.

This is a huge benefit in grappling since its one of the few sports that allows you to spar 100% every day. This element alone would give a trained person a huge advantage.

Kudos to you, from another Christian man. I'm glad to hear that you have never had to experience this. I did, I'm not proud of it, but I do feel I can take away one positive from the experience - I learned I want nothing to do with it.

I had some dark, lost years as a young man. My father died when i was 18, and I kinda spun out of control for awhile. Long story, too much to get into here, but suffice to say that before my wife (I honestly believe sent by our Lord) saved me from all of my self destructive ways, I was on a very, very bad path.

Remember the old television show Scared Straight, wherein they would take at-risk kids and bring them to prison to meet "the best of the best"? That was me, real life. I fell in with a bike club (gang) of international notoriety, and was even asked to prospect with them. Fortunately, I soon met my girlfriend (and future wife of now 37 years), who saved me from all of that. Along the way, however, I saw some very, very ugly, violent things. I was starting to suspect, even before meeting my wife, that there might not be any future with those guys...

So, yeah - street fights. Between guys who really, really mean it. Absolutely scared the bejeebers out of me just watching. I'm here to tell you, conditioning, fitness, even refined skills - mean absolutely nothing. You say that the average untrained combatant will "gas out" in a couple of minutes. I laughed out loud at that one - I never, ever, saw such a fight last more than maybe 30 seconds, and that would be an all-time endurance record. Most were decided in a fraction of that. The only thing that matters is how downright mean, how incredibly vicious one or the other man proves to be. Seeing how far that can go absolutely shook me to the core. I bet it would you as well.

Anyway, I'm glad you never had to see or be a part of anything like that. It's not what you think. Your skills would not matter.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by DonDavis

ahem.. I got this

Theres no replacement for displacement! HP will always kill a 210 hp car! My muscle car rules all!!!

...or something of that nature.

btw, 1,000,000 actual fights? riiight.

And Steve's right.

Ya'll carry on.

Depends what kind of race, I guess. And "a million," is just an expression. Means that I lost count in about 1975.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Kudos to you, from another Christian man. I'm glad to hear that you have never had to experience this. I did, I'm not proud of it, but I do feel I can take away one positive from the experience - I learned I want nothing to do with it.

I had some dark, lost years as a young man. My father died when i was 18, and I kinda spun out of control for awhile. Long story, too much to get into here, but suffice to say that before my wife (I honestly believe sent by our Lord) saved me from all of my self destructive ways, I was on a very, very bad path.

Remember the old television show Scared Straight, wherein they would take at-risk kids and bring them to prison to meet "the best of the best"? That was me, real life. I fell in with a bike club (gang) of international notoriety, and was even asked to prospect with them. Fortunately, I soon met my girlfriend (and future wife of now 37 years), who saved me from all of that. Along the way, however, I saw some very, very ugly, violent things. I was starting to suspect, even before meeting my wife, that there might not be any future with those guys...

So, yeah - street fights. Between guys who really, really mean it. Absolutely scared the bejeebers out of me just watching. I'm here to tell you, conditioning, fitness, even refined skills - mean absolutely nothing. You say that the average untrained combatant will "gas out" in a couple of minutes. I laughed out loud at that one - I never, ever, saw such a fight last more than maybe 30 seconds, and that would be an all-time endurance record. Most were decided in a fraction of that. The only thing that matters is how downright mean, how incredibly vicious one or the other man proves to be. Seeing how far that can go absolutely shook me to the core. I bet it would you as well.

Anyway, I'm glad you never had to see or be a part of anything like that. It's not what you think. Your skills would not matter.

I've been around many of the guys I think that you're talking about and even though they could dismember me, I was never worried because I don't mess with them. Minding one's own business and having manners goes a loooong way. Now, if I was dumb enough to attend a house party where they had been drinking for the last 8 hours, I might get my ass kicked just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But I would have to put myself in that place and I'm not that stupid.

[speeder]

And since this is just a scientific discussion, I think that Jeff and Rod are both right, depending on the opponent/situation. A hypothetical question would be, "how would a trained Jiu Jitsu guy do in a prison fight?' No rules, concrete floor/walls, fighting an evil sociopath that would gouge your eyes out or slam your head repeatedly into the floor, etc.?

The answer would be extremely well, as long as it was one on one and he did not get immediately incapacitated by a punch. Even Royce Gracie used to say that he could get knocked out and that was the only way he would lose. Super trained JJ fighters like the Gracies are all about slipping punches and not getting KO'ed before they can get inside and do their magic. Once they are in close and get ahold of a limb, it's all over for the other guy.

A JJ guy who is tough to start with and can sock it out would be absolutely unbeatable...he could always get inside and get ahold of the opponent.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by speeder

As for Jiu Jitsu, I have nothing but respect for that discipline and anyone seriously trained and skilled in that would eat my lunch and choke me out. I have tons of friends who have practiced it for decades, including with Rickson Gracie.

After my son lost his left eye, he had to stop boxing and TKD and switched to JJ. He is about six years in and competes in tournaments in Virginia. He needs the adrenaline as much as anything and he loves the vibe. He is on his third belt.

I grew up boxing (a lot) and JJ just wasn't a thing in the 60's/70's, at least in my world. My daughter also boxes at a level she is comfortable with.

I have learned quite a bit about JJ and the skill is a very interesting application of "boxing" tools that get you close...the JJ folks know what hurts, to a degree I didn't understand.

There is, btw, in a real fight, no such thing as a "fair fight"...."Queensberry" is a street in Boston.

Anyway, been in more than a few, seen many more. The main lesson is fairly simple: Try and not FUI (fight under the influence of drugs or alcohol) unless your opponent is FUI just like you.

That and watch the second, slightly smaller guy behind the drunk antagonist.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by speeder

It's funny but I've read this exact statement, (or some variation of it), so many times on this board that I've lost count. Always from decent, nonviolent members who've either never been in a fight or at least not since grade school. All of this, "life or death, kill the other guy," stuff.

For me or anyone who has been in fights and has confidence in their ability, it's different in most cases. A while back, I had words with a psycho dude who everyone is afraid of in a public setting. He was intimidating and scaring people and I told him to STFU very loudly. He called me out and I told him that I'd be out in 5 minutes when I was through with my business inside. I also told him that I'd be delighted to fight and that I sort of live for these situations. Ok, I never grew up 100%.

Magically, when I came outside, he was gone. I was glad that I did not actually have to fight him but I was not the least bit scared and I would have won. I know it. It might have been easy and it might have been hard but I would have won. Losing fights sucks so I don't do it. Did I think, "I'm going to have to kill this guy because my life is on the line?" Hell no...GMAFB. I am an old hockey fighter...we would have socked it out and I'm Irish...therefore I win.

As for Jiu Jitsu, I have nothing but respect for that discipline and anyone seriously trained and skilled in that would eat my lunch and choke me out. I have tons of friends who have practiced it for decades, including with Rickson Gracie. But those guys do not stand outside of an AA meeting scaring women, (and some men), or bother anyone, ever. That's how I know 100% I would have won that fight...it could never happen with a trained martial artist.

I've never been in a fight. I'm not a fighter. I was hit in the nose once in the 9th grade in school, that's as close as I've ever come (immediately couldn't see crap).

I assume that whatever unconscious strategy I use has worked to keep me out of trouble. I assume the biggest part is that you can say pretty much anything you want to me and IDGAF. (sticks and stones and all that...). So you can call me whatever names you want and that's not going to instigate a fight with me. I have never felt the need to escalate name calling to a physical altercation. Hell, I've been pushed a couple of times (yeah, probably <5 times) and that also does not require me to get into a fight. I'm bigger than avg, so maybe that has helped me avoid fights, I don't know.

So yes, if I ever end up in a fight, it's probably going to be life or death. Will I kill the other person, maybe not, but if I felt like I had to... If I was able to dissuade them from continuing without killing them great. I'll be as persuasive as I can manage.

If I get into a fight, since I've never been in a fight, it's probably not going to go well for me. So I have a CHL.

It would be great if I was confident that I could fight almost anyone and win, but I think to know that, I'd had to have been in a lot of fights. At 50+, I feel like it's a little late to start that.

I knew a guy that grew up in NYC, IIRC. He was shortish and fairly stocky. He said that growing up, he got in a lot of fights, consequently he was pretty confident at his chances in pretty much any fight. I've got another buddy, that grew up in a rough part of Ohio where he was a minority. According to him, he first learned to take a beating really well (often outnumbered), and eventually through practice at getting the crap kicked out of him, learned how to fight. I think he's ~6'3" and 275#.