My Oldest Friend's Son, the Bank Robber

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Both of my boys told me they wanted nothing to do with him, even long before all of this. Both told me he was "trouble", and was always trying to entice them into doing things they knew damn well they shouldn't. So, I have to wonder, at what age does this start?

As I've grown older and seen and heard more, I've decided that while yes, nurture can impact how people end up, I think nurture is just a minor tweak in the grand scheme of things.

I think nature is the primary driver behind how people turn out and their actions. My guess is that this kid just had it in him, and there probably wasn't much that his parents could have done to change that.

I've known folks that came from horrible upbringing to be excellent people. I've heard of folks that came from what should have been great upbringing that turned out unfortunately.

I think it would take something quite extreme to take someone that was wired to be good to get them to turn out bad. And for the folks that are wired to be bad, I'm not sure that anything can stop it. Maybe it can be tempered a bit to be not quite as bad, but that's about it.

[jyl]

It seems like an arms race. One side - the substances and dealer groups that distribute it - are getting stronger. Ok, I don’t know if the dealers are stronger, but the substances are. The other side - the programs to detox and treat addiction - are disarming. Not intentionally, but it sounds like it’s harder and harder to get help. The results get squeezed into the streets or jails.

[Jeff Higgins]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the comments and support. Even though he's not my kid, he feels that way, maybe in a more detached kind of way, but he feels that way. And my buddy and his wife... I'm just at a loss. I have no idea what to say anymore. I let them start any conversations about their son.

I'm leaning towards the "hard wired" explanation. Maybe something triggers it, but don't most of us who enjoyed "normal" upbringings get exposed to most of the same things, good and bad? I mean, the other kids at that school must have been approached by, or were at least aware of, whoever it was dealing the heroin. I'm sure others didn't turn out so well either, but robbing banks? That seems like a whole other level beyond the normally "petty" street crime we see from addicts.

So I have to wonder if, even without the drugs, regardless of how he was raised, this was always going to be his path. Some mutant gene or something. I dunno. Searching for answers. I've known both parents since junior high school. Their other kids are fine. Just defies reason.

[sc_rufctr]

You're going to have to divorce yourself from this kid Jeff. He made his choices and that's it.

That may sound brutal but you really can't fix everything.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I'm leaning towards the "hard wired" explanation. That seems like a whole other level beyond the normally "petty" street crime we see from addicts.

So I have to wonder if, even without the drugs, regardless of how he was raised, this was always going to be his path. Some mutant gene or something. I dunno. Searching for answers. I've known both parents since junior high school. Their other kids are fine. Just defies reason.

Being prone to addiction is another thing that I think can be genetic (and related to personality). And once a person has a monkey on their back, all bets are off as to how far and how hard that monkey is going to ride them.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

You're going to have to divorce yourself from this kid Jeff. He made his choices and that's it.

That may sound brutal but you really can't fix everything.

Important that no one can fix an addict but the addict. Other than hoping and praying that they'll make the decision to stop and actually follow through there's not much that anyone else can do.

[Alan A]

Junkie. Nuff said

Know a guy that did a 7 stretch before time off for good behavior for cooking meth.
Went from married with kids to hooking up with a junkie to jail in a couple of long, sad years.

In that case he seems to have turned it around, but … drugs are bad, stay in school.

[jyl]

I looked for studies and, no surprise, there are (many) genes and combinations of genes associated with higher addiction risk, but none of them seem to be “very” predictive of addiction.

Kids bring such heartache, sometimes. One of my friends has three beautiful daughters; during Covid the middle one hung herself, her parents found her body. Another friend’s elder daughter dropped out from college to be a strip dancer and sexworker, she came back to “normal” after a few years. Another close friend’s son has grown into a morbidly obese loser who’s highest ambition is to be declared disabled. Those parents suffered awfully.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by drcoastline

But to say just throw a person out with the trash? WTF!

Poor choice of words on my part. What I meant to say was that he should be locked up and that they should misplace the key for a few decades. I’ve had my fill of criminal sociopaths and I no longer care what BS excuse they have for being horrible people.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

The abuse, if there was any, could have been perpetrated by someone outside the family. Nevertheless, it’s speculation on my part of course, but also sometimes there’s just no explanation.

Or there are several possible explanations, just not the one that you made up. My best friend’s older brother has been in prison for robbing banks his entire adult life, like 45+ years. Every decade or so, they let him out on parole and he immediately starts shooting smack and robbing banks. It’s his entire set of life skills. The last time, he got in a shoot-out with the FBI in Newport Beach and I was relieved because, A) no one got shot, (miracle), and B) I was convinced that he would never breathe free air again.

Fast forward to 2023 and I hear that he is actually about to be paroled again. I can’t believe it. He’s now old, (late ‘60s), but who knows? He might make one last stab at it. In his mind, his mistake in life all probably revolve around getting caught for his crimes. Maybe he thinks that he can do it right this time and get away with it(?) We are not talking about people with normal brain function.

Lastly, getting molested is not what causes criminals. That’s one hell of a logical fail.

[craigster59]

One of my best friends in high school ended up in that direction. Married young with a kid, divorced and started in with coke (mid 1980's).

He knocked over 2 banks in the San Fernando Valley and they chased him on the 101 from Agoura to Topanga, caught him and he ended up doing about 5 years (no firearm, a shampoo bottle of all things).

Got out, sporadic employment due to his record and pulled another bank job. He's out now, working at Target stocking shelves at 64 years old.

[wildthing]

It's probably the drugs... He got hooked, and that's it. Gotta get that next hit.

[Crowbob]

Speedo:

‘Lastly, getting molested is not what causes criminals. That’s one hell of a logical fail.’

Your assumption that all abuse is molestation affords insight into your thinking and is also not logical.

[Cairo94507]

As this is his 3rd time at bat, I hate to say it but Life w/o the possibility of parole would be in the best interest of everyone.

[jhynesrockmtn]

I worked in a residential group home for boys that were taken from their homes by child protective services. I don't know that any study or anecdotal "evidence" will ever answer the question of why some kids "go bad". I can tell you nobody knows for sure. Nature vs nurture is an age old question that may never be fully solved, because everyone is unique.

The most puzzling are situations like Jeff's friend. 3 kids, normal good family. 2 turn out fine. One is in constant trouble.

I am quite certain that abuse and neglect play a role, but not for everyone. However, there is no way that some of these true scenarios don't have a major impact on a young kid. Here are a few examples. Being tied to a tree to watch your mom raped by a gang. Being dropped off at our facility because mom chose to live with the child predator boyfriend vs keeping her children. Being raped while Mom got high and watched, voluntarily. Being starved and locked in a closet much of the day. Being beaten repeatedly to the point of brain damage.

I don't know the solution, but there are people, a shockingly large number of people, who are not equipped to raise children.

[drcoastline]

Originally Posted by speeder

Poor choice of words on my part. What I meant to say was that he should be locked up and that they should misplace the key for a few decades. I’ve had my fill of criminal sociopaths and I no longer care what BS excuse they have for being horrible people.

I agree with that statement. People that are criminals want to be criminals and I largely believe that for "addiction" as well, people that are addicts want to be addicts for one reason or another.

[ErVikingo]

Originally Posted by wildthing

It's probably the drugs... He got hooked, and that's it. Gotta get that next hit.

This...

very sad story.

[matthewb0051]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

But, man, I watched him grow up... I'm kind of a wreck right now...

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

You're going to have to divorce yourself from this kid Jeff. He made his choices and that's it.

That may sound brutal but you really can't fix everything.

As you probably know, I do criminal defense EVERY frickin day. I'm pretty jaded and on some level dead inside (when it comes to certain crimes). Have to be or this will eat you up.

I've known other attorneys that believed the victims at all cost and others that believe clients at all cost. You do so at your own peril.

Sadly, I see a lot of folks that have no support, family or otherwise. It is a rarity that we see a defendant from a good home with visible support in the courtroom. So, I'd have to say this situation is all down to the drugs.

As for 3 strikes or whatever: Texas has enhancements to felonies for repeater and habitual offenders. If you have one prior felony conviction, you are repeater and your next offense is sentenced at the next higher felony level. Two or more and you are habitual, with a 25 year minimum (to life/99). Those are a real kick in the Jimmy.

I had a case that was sentenced last week but had been going on for about 18 months. Dude was habitual and it crushed him. We got DA to waive the enhancement and a sentence cap of 25 as a plea agreement. Judge was not amused with his prior record (as I argued I noticed Judge flipping pages of the case and his record). She gave him 20, which hurt a bit. Bottom line, he won during negotiations and I'd like to think my argument got him 5 years off.

I tend to agree with the other post I quoted. You don't have to give up on the guy but you shouldn't carry this either. You didn't make this bed.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by matthewb0051

Sadly, I see a lot of folks that have no support, family or otherwise. It is a rarity that we see a defendant from a good home with visible support in the courtroom. So, I'd have to say this situation is all down to the drugs.

My son is on the other side but will be moving across the aisle in February in Virginia. His stories from the current, defense side, are incredible and he has spent a lot of time in court.

What you wrote, and I abridged your post, is truth: I was the 3rd wheel in a good family of very high achievers, extended family as well.

I just gooned it: I bought my own news clippings and was, frankly, a complete, angry nuisance at 17. I do not know why. Drugs were not an issue and I wasn't a big drinker: I was an *******. It happens.

Then I was informed by my parents how it was all going to work if I wanted to continue to participate in the family. They were very specific and did not need outside council to inform me of the terms. I was smart and got great grades but my overall behavior was junk.

It worked because I knew they were serious and would not flinch.

That written, I am in no way blaming your friends for their son's demise: Drugs, peer pressure and just being an a$$ is an arc of sadness easy to fall into, very hard to escape.

My Sister was a DA in South Carolina for decades. She would tell me that the eyes of the person she was prosecuting was the tell, the story and the truth. She just had to go get it in legal terms.

[pavulon]

Lots of addictions can take people down. Gambling, smoking, drinking, drugs, porn... . I think addicts not only crave their "substance" but also the linearity of being an addict. Wanting and getting the one thing that matters most to you several times each day is fulfilling even if it ruins people. In contrast, recovery and the rest of being functional isn't very linear. Not using is obviously part of a recovery but it's not all of it and substituting one addiction with another (religion, exercise, meetings...?prison?) seems like a pretty common tactic.