Race Guns

[Jeff Higgins]

Of a different stripe, of course (you guys all know me...). The Colt SAA modified for quick draw and fanning. Fastest gun in the world, bar none.

[id10t]

Bump fire 1800s style ...

[pwd72s]

Fascinating...thanks!

[sc_rufctr]

That was interesting but you certainly have to know what you're doing.

[Jeff Higgins]

Yeah, there is no shortage of people who shoot themselves in the leg when playing Wild Bill Hickok with loaded six-guns. All quick draw competition is done with blanks, unless they actually have to hit something (usually a balloon), in which case they use wax wads. Even those can be dangerous, though... there was a television actor who shot himself in the head with one in the '70's. He died.

The next step down this rabbit hole is what is known as a "slip gun". Elmer Keith covers them extensively in Sixguns by Keith.



Notice there is no trigger. That, and the hammer spur has been cut off and welded back on lower down the hammer. These are pure close range gunfighter weapons. They are fired by simply pulling the hammer back with the thumb or web of the hand as the gun is drawn, letting the hammer slip out from under it when the muzzle comes up on target.

Keith actually used one for awhile, determined to get good with it. He accomplished that, but in the end found it to be too "single use", and it ruined him for trigger work. Interesting little bit of gunfighting history, though.

[Por_sha911]

I'm surprised Gov Grusom hasn't designated the Race Gun as an Assault Weapon and make it illegal to own.

[Jeff Higgins]

Five rounds isn't exactly "high capacity" by anyone's measure.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Five rounds isn't exactly "high capacity" by anyone's measure.

Neither is a 15 round semi-automatic but never underestimate the ability of a politician to create a crisis or danger where there is none.

[Jeff Higgins]

I guess, in the end, it is a little surprising that such an antiquated design is still able to be sold today. No safety of any kind, and loading it to its full capacity of six renders it rather dangerous to carry.

[Por_sha911]

I wondered if they had a transfer bar.

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Five rounds isn't exactly "high capacity" by anyone's measure.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

....and loading it to its full capacity of six renders it rather dangerous to carry.

I was going to say, anyone who modifies a weapon that radically probably doesn't think much about leaving one empty for safety, do they? Or, maybe they leave two empty just because it's so scary!

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

I wondered if they had a transfer bar.

Nope. Transfer bar guns (like the Rugers) are not commonly used for this. All of the extra stuff going on inside slows them down.

Originally Posted by herr_oberst

I was going to say, anyone who modifies a weapon that radically probably doesn't think much about leaving one empty for safety, do they? Or, maybe they leave two empty just because it's so scary!

If you notice, he does load only five rounds. Maybe only because he is filming. He does say, repeatedly, not to fast draw with live ammo as well. Might be worried about litigation or something.

One thing that I picked up on that kind of annoys me is his use of .45 ACP brass. Many of these revolvers chambered in .45 Colt come with an extra cylinder so chambered. Great idea, don't get me wrong, what with the availability of .45 ACP ammo and its cost compared to .45 Colt.

The problem for me, however, is that no one had that in the 1870's. They had a few choices in .45 Colt ammo, and all of them had significantly more lead and powder than his .45 ACP loads. The military used a 230 grain bullet over, at first, 28 grains of black powder. They later reduced that to 23 grains because recruits had such a hard time with recoil.

Civilian loads had up to 40 grains of black powder and 250-255 grains of lead. I'm here to tell you, that load in a lightweight Peacemaker is a real handful. More recoil than any .44 Magnum load I have ever cobbled together. Combined with the concussion and flash, it can be pretty darn intimidating. A real killer, though, with velocities exceeding 1,000 fps from my 7 1/2" Colt.

This guy is shooting what we colloquially refer to as "bunny fart" loads. 20 grains of black powder under a 200 grain bullet. And he complains about "recoil". This is a disease that has infected Coboy Action Shooting. He references a "power factor", but that is only used in IPSC style shooting to try to discourage the use of these squib loads in a "practical" competition. The Coboy Action folks don't do that. As a result, we see them using loads that were not only unavailable in the era they seek to emulate, but no one would have dared use them even if they were.

I would like to see him try this with one of my full power, period correct 40 grain / 250 grain loads. No way in hell.

[Por_sha911]

Cowboy loads/bunny farts...
These are guns aren't for practical purposes. Seems to me they appeal to doctors, lawyers, and accountants who want to play cowboy. Just like when they want to pretend to be big bad bikers so they buy a Harley and all the appropriate attire. (You can spot them a mile away because their bikes are shiny, their gear shows no sign of dirt or wear, and they have perfect hair, teeth, and manicured fingernails... This crowd wants cap guns and not real firearms.

[Jeff Higgins]

Maybe. One cannot deny their skill and speed, however. The reduced recoil loads are, no doubt, unrealistic. They seek to emulate/recreate a somewhat romanticized period of American history. They do spend a great deal of time, effort, and money doing so. I cannot begrudge them that. My only "complaint" (if it even reaches that level) is their unwillingness to go the extra mile and learn to deal with the very real challenges of dealing with these weapons in a "period correct" context. It's not easy. Back in the day, they both had no choice and knew no better. Their competitions should reflect that, with some sort of an advantage given to those who are willing to accept those challenges.

[sc_rufctr]

To each their own. I can see the value of developing such guns & skills.

I can also think of a lot worse ways to spend money.

[Bill Douglas]

Nothing wrong with bunny fart loads. I'm developing one for my new to me CZ SP-01.

You don't want any more recoil than you can get away with in IPSC. Example being, in four seconds gun out of the holster and six shots into four targets.

[id10t]

In my 1858 clone, a 223 case full of 3Fg (31gr by weight) under a .451 or .454 144gr round ball is very controllable recoil wise

[Jeff Higgins]

I fully appreciate the need, in competition, to maximize one's advantages. The reduction of recoil is a decided advantage in every shooting competition there is. No doubt about it. And, well, participation in these types of shooting sports speaks for itself - these are incredibly popular. One hell of a lot of fun. I've shot both IPSC and Cowboy Action and had a ball doing it. I did rather poorly at both, but that didn't keep me from having a great time.

Against a backdrop of highly specialized and absolutely impractical pistols that had been developed for competition, the IPSC - International Practical Shooting Confederation was formed. Its sole intent was to encourage, through competition, the development of proficiency with one's carry gun. Practical pistols in serious defensive calibers shooting full power loads. They even delineate "major" caliber pistols from "minor" caliber pistols, scoring the "majors" higher for the same hits.

That was the original intent, anyway. It's largely been lost. Not that the "new" game isn't fun, it's just that it's in no way "practical" anymore. I would like to see a return to the original concept (in addition to, not instead of). I'm not sure how many people would play, maybe not many at all.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by id10t

In my 1858 clone, a 223 case full of 3Fg (31gr by weight) under a .451 or .454 144gr round ball is very controllable recoil wise

Same with my Ruger Old Army. I've chronographed these loads at just about 1,100 fps. I would compare recoil to a standard .38 Special out of a K framed Smith or something. Very easy to shoot. Nothing to sneer at, for sure, a very effective load at defensive ranges. That pure lead round ball flattens into a silver dollar on impact. Ouch...

Things change, however, when we add another 106 to 111 grains of lead and nine more grains of powder. As I mentioned earlier, these clock right at 1,000 fps, so not all that much slower than the little round ball. And hoo boy, out of an original Peacemaker (which is actually a pretty light little gun), these things let you know you just pulled the trigger on something.