I'm getting my FFL.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

I'd be tempted to casually mention to some neighbors that I was told that there is a daycare, a caterer, and a furniture maker located in the neighborhood and I would hate for my denial for the FFL to create unwanted attention to our neighborhood because it might news people to start snooping around... "not that I would know who those people are..."

Or show them the face book pages, printed out screenshots.

[Arizona_928]

Originally Posted by Racerbvd

Or show them the face book pages, printed out screenshots.

+1

Something about living in a glass house while being the first to chuck rocks… would be fun to report some people to the IRS and see if you can collect the finder’s fee on them cheating uncle sam. Might even see a divorce and new neighbors.

[KFC911]

And because I have to find something serious to comment on...

This calls for Pelican vigilante justice!

Cacti beware

Well.... you did decide to live there.... rock out on yer patio Rick

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

My hearing is tomorrow. I don't have high hopes, but now that I see how blatantly this permit thing is ignored and not enforced except on FFL applicants, I suppose I need the denial before I can appeal, and, if that fails, then to escalate. I don't have anything to lose now. Lots of neighbors now think I'm the anti-christ.

Sadly, there are wankers everywhere.

Originally Posted by Racerbvd

Good luck, we are pulling for you.

Yep, 100%.

[Rick Lee]

And a ray of hope emerges. I was just copied on an email to the City from a couple who had written to oppose my application. This was their message:

Dear Zoning Board,
After communicating with the applicant we have decided to withdraw our opposition letter.
Thank you,

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

And a ray of hope emerges. I was just copied on an email to the City from a couple who had written to oppose my application. This was their message:

Dear Zoning Board,
After communicating with the applicant we have decided to withdraw our opposition letter.
Thank you,

Nice! It seems that there are reasonable, rational people in the world.

[Rick Lee]

It's getting interesting now. Tues. night I came home from work and a neighbor was in his driveway. He has a BMW 328i and I had a 320i I sold a few years ago. I had a new Mahle air filter for it I could no longer use, so I walked over to give it to him and chat. He was totally cool, said he'd use me for transfers if I get my FFL and wants to go shoot with me sometime. 10 minutes ago I got a scathing email forwarded by the City from this man's wife! And she sent it last week, but it's just now getting to me and two days after I had a very pleasant chat with her husband in the driveway. I have to think he mentioned our conversation to her. But who knows what goes on there?

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

It's getting interesting now. Tues. night I came home from work and a neighbor was in his driveway. He has a BMW 328i and I had a 320i I sold a few years ago. I had a new Mahle air filter for it I could no longer use, so I walked over to give it to him and chat. He was totally cool, said he'd use me for transfers if I get my FFL and wants to go shoot with me sometime. 10 minutes ago I got a scathing email forwarded by the City from this man's wife! And she sent it last week, but it's just now getting to me and two days after I had a very pleasant chat with her husband in the driveway. I have to think he mentioned our conversation to her. But who knows what goes on there?

Be glad that you're not married to her!

[Rick Lee]

The real Karen instigator is their nextdoor neighbor. She has door knocked us a few times, trying ti round up votes for or against some HOA thing. I'm sure she organized this whole thing and a lot of it done via ChatGPT, as I just can't see everyone writing such long protest letters, cutting and pasting language from the HOA CCRs that clearly lay out why this activity is perfectly ok with the permit, which some of these people need and don't have. I really wonder how this hearing will go, if they just ask me some questions, read all the protests, ask me to rebut them, or what.

[onewhippedpuppy]

I hate HOAs and the type of people that gravitate to participating in them. Small people in search of power and importance.

[Rick Lee]

Just got back from my hearing and the use permit was denied. Five neighbors showed up and two of them were represented by a lawyer. Not joking. This guy was out of central casting, just a dramatic bag o’doosh. If I had been a judge, it would have been hard to seriously consider any argument he made. The hearing officer did interrupt him a few times to remind him that what he was claiming I was doing was something I had already addressed and explained how I was not doing it.

Anyway, the reason given for the denial was negative impact on property values. Mind you the three other neighborhood FFLs and non-permitted businesses have been left alone and, so they obviously haven’t impacted property values. I need to find out if I appeal, whether I only have to address that one reason with no new issues allowed to be brought up. Or is it starting the process all over again? And an appeal is another $490 fee. Maybe I can just reapply for my FFL and hope my app gets assigned to a different examiner who doesn’t require me to get the use permit.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Just got back from my hearing and the use permit was denied. Five neighbors showed up and two of them were represented by a lawyer. Not joking. This guy was out of central casting, just a dramatic bag o’doosh. If I had been a judge, it would have been hard to seriously consider any argument he made. The hearing officer did interrupt him a few times to remind him that what he was claiming I was doing was something I had already addressed and explained how I was not doing it.

Anyway, the reason given for the denial was negative impact on property values. Mind you the three other neighborhood FFLs and non-permitted businesses have been left alone and, so they obviously haven’t impacted property values. I need to find out if I appeal, whether I only have to address that one reason with no new issues allowed to be brought up. Or is it starting the process all over again? And an appeal is another $490 fee. Maybe I can just reapply for my FFL and hope my app gets assigned to a different examiner who doesn’t require me to get the use permit.

Wow! That's insane.

[greglepore]

The legal term to look for is whether the review in your jurisdiction is "de novo" or not. If de novo, its as if the hearing never happened, if not, its limited to the a review of the rationale for the ruling.

[Arizona_928]

A ffl isn’t going to lower property values. Might increase them…

[Rick Lee]

Ok, I read over the appeal documents they gave me and it looks like, while the process is a little different and more streamlined, any subject can be brought up, discussed and debated before a board. So, while my main goal would be to bring in a pro to discuss how property values have not suffered due to FFL and other home business activity (permitted or non-permitted), I could be thrown a curveball by a board member or another protesting neighbor.

Trouble is that my nextdoor neighbor is a buddy, I really like him, we look after each other's stuff, says the same Karen is making him want to list his house for sale and move out of an HOA. If I file an appeal, the City will plant another sign in my yard and I don't want that to cause problems if he lists his house for sale. And my not appealing for that reason kind of defeats my claim that property values wouldn't be affected. So I'm considering two other options.

Since ATF did not process my application and said they'd refuynd my $200 fee (which I've been waiting on for two months), I'm considering re-applying and just hoping my app gets assigned to an investigator who doesn't make me get the home occupation permit. I now personally know of three other nearby home-based FFLs who were never made to get the permit. Actually, one was, but he didn't have to do the notification letters to his neighbors or have the sign in his yard. So no one is the wiser and no one protested anything.

The other avenue is to find someone in charge of code enforcement and write a very strong letter about unequal application of the law and code, giving detailed examples of the other non-permitted businesses in the neighborhood, while citing my own app denial for trying to do the right thing.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Arizona_928

A ffl isn’t going to lower property values. Might increase them…

Exactly, an idiot liberal posted this crap on another forum I frequent.

Re Florida - Per census data/per POD's relocation analytics via a NY Post article recently - @ 700k moved here in 2022...and 500k have since moved elsewhere (back north) due to the heat, hurricanes, wildlife, gun laws, no quality of life, high cost of everything, traffic etc etc here in Florida (when surveyed, these are reasons folk gave re leaving Florida...after relocating here in 2022).

South Florida now is the 3rd most fled area.....behind LA and San Fran.

The author is claiming that Florida GUN laws causing people to LEAVE the state, only the criminals who don’t want to be shot. Clearly the author is of the same brain dead mentality that claims a FFL will lower property values, but not a bunch of screaming kids at an unlicensed day care.
Keep up the good fight.

[Rick Lee]

I don't think anyone can claim that property values in Phoenix have gone down anywhere in the last five years. It's insane here. In fact, by that argument, I could look at the hundred or hundreds of home-based FFLs in Phoenix and show that property values keep increasing, no matter what.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Ok, I read over the appeal documents they gave me and it looks like, while the process is a little different and more streamlined, any subject can be brought up, discussed and debated before a board. So, while my main goal would be to bring in a pro to discuss how property values have not suffered due to FFL and other home business activity (permitted or non-permitted), I could be thrown a curveball by a board member or another protesting neighbor.

Trouble is that my nextdoor neighbor is a buddy, I really like him, we look after each other's stuff, says the same Karen is making him want to list his house for sale and move out of an HOA. If I file an appeal, the City will plant another sign in my yard and I don't want that to cause problems if he lists his house for sale. And my not appealing for that reason kind of defeats my claim that property values wouldn't be affected. So I'm considering two other options.

Since ATF did not process my application and said they'd refuynd my $200 fee (which I've been waiting on for two months), I'm considering re-applying and just hoping my app gets assigned to an investigator who doesn't make me get the home occupation permit. I now personally know of three other nearby home-based FFLs who were never made to get the permit. Actually, one was, but he didn't have to do the notification letters to his neighbors or have the sign in his yard. So no one is the wiser and no one protested anything.

The other avenue is to find someone in charge of code enforcement and write a very strong letter about unequal application of the law and code, giving detailed examples of the other non-permitted businesses in the neighborhood, while citing my own app denial for trying to do the right thing.

That should be fairly simple, as it is a fact that criminals are less likely to commit crimes in areas where residents have legal guns, look at that part of Georgia that got tired of being targeted from the crap in Atlanta, crime rates dropped and have stayed that way.

[greglepore]

The property value thing sounds like pure speculation, not evidence.
As far as the home business permit goes, before you withdraw and reapply I'd do some intelligence work to see if there's been a policy directive at ATF regarding that.

[onewhippedpuppy]

For the property value argument, could you take other home based FFLs and use the property value data around their home (Zillow) to substantiate that value in fact did not decrease?