If you are "self made," could you do it again in this economy?

[masraum]

Originally Posted by pavulon

Good or less than good fortune determines a considerable portion of how things turn out for people. Of course, most people don't appreciate the role it plays or can't admit that their situation wasn't in lock-step with their intentions and doings. The early Bill Gates story is pretty remarkable. Gladwell's book Outliers covers some of the angles.

Agreed, fortune, fate, chance, all play a part in how we end up. But I think a person's personality and how they react, perservere, and strive play a bigger part in how they end up. I've had many times where something happened that seemed like bad fortune at the time, but at some later date, I looked back and thought "thank goodness _____ happened, because if it hadn't I'd likely have still been where I was, but now I'm here. And here is so much better!". When I was younger, I thought that I lead a pretty charmed life because it seemed like everything that happened to me lead someplace good. Was that because all of those things that seemed bad at the time were actually random good luck or is it because I kept striving and working towards something better despite set backs or bad luck? Or is it all down to luck and I've just got a super optimistic outlook on life (I think I am a more optimistic than pessimistic, but also realistic (cynical).) I don't feel like I should take credit for everything good that's happened to me, but maybe it is down to me and my continued work to progress.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

You are being needlessly argumentative. I'm on your side 90% and you STILL insist on arguing.

Welcome, sir. Let me introduce you to CP! If you pay attention, you may notice a pattern.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by LWJ

Assuming you didn't inherit a business or a trust fund and your rise to middle class or more was on your own efforts. Could you do the same if you were 22 years old in 2024?

Me? I paid for college with a crappy blue collar job. Did various sales gigs and bought as much real estate as I could for a while. I am 58 and don't really work much today.

However I have a 22 year old son who can't afford to buy a home and needs to follow a completely different model than I did.

Me? I could survive in today's market. But I would not do nearly as well if I followed the same recipe.

What about you?

Different cultural and economic dynamics create their own rule sets within distinct time frames. Just as you wouldn't expect to win F1 with a '67 312 today, you wouldn't use a model defined for the 90s to forge a path to success (however you want to define that term).

What model does your son need to follow today?

What's the paradigm shift(s) that forces him and his peers to take a different path to achieve the so-called American Dream?

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

Different cultural and economic dynamics create their own rule sets within distinct time frames. Just as you wouldn't expect to win F1 with a '67 312 today, you wouldn't use a model defined for the 90s to forge a path to success (however you want to define that term).

What model does your son need to follow today?

What's the paradigm shift(s) that forces him and his peers to take a different path to achieve the so-called American Dream?

If I was driving one of those, I'd consider that a win regardless of the outcome!

[rwest]

I think “right time, right place” can also have an impact.

I worked hard and learned as much as I could at work when others were just doing the minimum, but that alone didn’t get me promoted. My boss had to retire when he did so there was a job available. If he would have stuck around, I might have retired myself at a lower position and conversely if he left too early, upper management might had felt I wasn’t ready and hired from the outside.

[fintstone]

I don't know about others, but I pretty much paid my own way and made my own decisions after I was in my mid-teens. My parents fed me and provided shelter until I left home at 17...but they did not contribute much to what I did (I saw them rarely after that). My wife (of 48 years) certainly has had more impact on my success (as likely did some of my supervisors/role models).

I subscribe to the same theory as those that have pointed out that they did well considering where they started. IMHO, most folks' successes or failures are largely due to their own decisions/action. When I look at the people that I grew up with that had similar childhoods/parents, went to the same 1-12 schools, etc... comparing their accomplishments and failures to mine (and my siblings) seem a good metric.

If one goes out alone into the big meritocracy (as the US generally is) and is successful or not, they are "self-made"...good or bad. Even if you come from family wealth, growing that exponentially seems the same. Failing to improve your circumstances or making them worse would similarly be something to consider as your doing. You would never compare yourself to the folks that start with nothing but would consider where you started.

Here is another slant. If you marry into wealth, is that also because you chose well/made good decisions? Are you still "self-made?" What if a husband (or wife) becomes successful, but only after marriage? Lots of wives believe they are key to husband's success and are happy to tell you so.

[LWJ]

Wisdom from Shaun. Very nice. Thanks.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by rwest

I think “right time, right place” can also have an impact.

I worked hard and learned as much as I could at work when others were just doing the minimum, but that alone didn’t get me promoted. My boss had to retire when he did so there was a job available. If he would have stuck around, I might have retired myself at a lower position and conversely if he left too early, upper management might had felt I wasn’t ready and hired from the outside.

What if your boss had worked on and on for several more decades? Some would leave soon for a better opportunity, and some would choose to stay where they were comfortable and not advance.

We are all, to some extent, in the right place at the right time at many points in our life. Success occurs when opportunity meets preparation.” Some just do not do the right things to take advantage of that "right place, right time" as others might. Each time we do, the success compounds and more opportunities come our way.

Almost anyone can go to school, work multiple jobs, etc....and advance over and over and invest the proceeds (live a bit frugally). We just choose not to. Anyone can invest their money...or not (and choose the amount of risk they are willing to take). It is much like the way that some guys are always overweight, and some are relatively fit/lean. It is not awfully hard to refrain from consuming excessive calories or to get a bit of regular exercise (unless already seriously handicapped). It is just awfully easy not to.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by LWJ

However I have a 22 year old son who can't afford to buy a home...

Private Equity will continue to buy up single family homes making it hard for actual people to compete. Welcome to our maturing Oligarchy.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

Different cultural and economic dynamics create their own rule sets within distinct time frames. Just as you wouldn't expect to win F1 with a '67 312 today, you wouldn't use a model defined for the 90s to forge a path to success (however you want to define that term).

What model does your son need to follow today?

I don't think following a model is a good way to success. I think it's more of a personality issue. A person can "win" with an entrepreneurial attitude in almost any culture and almost any time in history.
I've watched your success at several different endeavors, Shaun. I don't think you have been following anyone's model. You have the drive and the desire to succeed. Those are the essential elements of success.

[GH85Carrera]

One of our customers is the epitome of self made, but he is no multimillionaire. He was born in Ecuador in abject poverty. His parents were killed when he was 15. He went to the American consulate and received a visa to come to America to live with a cousin. He said he went to school and graduated with honors. He got into a small college, and then a bigger college. He ended up as a civil engineer. He was a land surveyor. He worked hard, learned a lot at a large company, then went out on his own. He started his own company as a black man and civil engineer. He often used us to fly projects for him. He was one of the smartest engineers we dealt with.

[Dixie]

I'm rather self made. I started with nothing but the clothes on my back. It took real dedication and effort to get where I am.

It also took friends that let me sleep on their sofa when I was young, broke, and between jobs. There's also the gentleman who hired me for my first IT job long before I graduated. Oh, and the AVP at another job that set me on the path of management. He saw me as a leader long before I ever thought of myself as one. And I can't leave out that sole female manager from my first job in 1979. She never knew it, but she inspired me just by being.

Thanking all these people doesn't negate my effort. Without my actions, all that assistance would be for naught.

[DavidI]

I am in constant amazement with the wealth of wisdom, knowledge, and expertise of you Pelicans. I appreciate the depth of thought each of you provide and love to learn from you and your experiences.

Rock on, David

[stealthn]

I had a chip on my shoulder of not going to University and competing against those that did, it drove me to look at the latest tech and suck up knowledge like a sponge. Today Computer Security is the job d’jour and huge in demand. I could do it again in just this field.

[monoflo]

In a sense it's all a crap shoot --starting with you don't get to pick where you are born or to whom.

You get born --put in the proverbial river in a dingy -they give you an oar and you think you are steering. If you're lucky you stay off the rocks -- If not you drown .

20% genetics -- -- the rest just depends ...

One is never as great or as bad as one thinks they are.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

I don't think following a model is a good way to success. I think it's more of a personality issue. A person can "win" with an entrepreneurial attitude in almost any culture and almost any time in history.
I've watched your success at several different endeavors, Shaun. I don't think you have been following anyone's model. You have the drive and the desire to succeed. Those are the essential elements of success.

Thank you for the kind words Patrick, I can say the same for you and at great risk of sounding arrogant, I think models are great for people who aren't driven entrepreneurs as we are. Structure creates safety and while it doesn't guarantee success, I think a pathway helps for everyone else.

My drive, and measure for, success has little to do with money and more to do with achieving something no one else has. So models aren't necessary and in some ways, are dissuasive. Plus part of the fun is creating your own path, even if to your own detriment at times. In that, life is always exciting being on the razor's edge.

2025 will be an interesting year.

[LakeCleElum]

Bought my 1st home at 22 and paid 50% down to assume a great loan. Started working 7 days a week at a gas station at age 15, summer on a fishing boat and started college with enough to pay my way. 2 months into college, was bored and worked 30 to 40 hrs a week, thereby saving the money to buy the house. Graduated from a private college with no debt. House paid off by age 26 and never had a home loan since. Never had a car loan. Always cash.

Really don't see that possible in todays market.

[1990C4S]

The answer depends on your inclination. If you're not flexible in your career, then what worked forty years ago probably won't have the same outcome today. The pensions, the cheap houses, the lifelong employment no longer exist.

If you are bright, flexible, and willing to work where the opportunities are, then you can still make lots of money.

[fintstone]

I don't know...when I started out (as an adult) ...I made $1.60 hr. Folks make $15-20 hr. flipping burgers now. About 10 times as much. I sure cannot sell my first home for 10 times what I paid for it. It took every penny that my wife and I made to live and buy a home...and we literally had no luxuries. We had no 401Ks or government handouts like now...much less a pension. I first had a pension when I joined the military. Military service and/or a military pension is much more lucrative now and they are begging people to join and offering massive bonuses to join and again to stay after the initial commitment. They also have a very lucrative GI Bill now (they did not when I joined in the 70s) ...so they can go to school for free. There is opportunity everywhere...if one is willing to work hard (since almost no one is). There are so many side gigs today on top of a regular job. Folks fought for service/fast food jobs when I was young. The recession/economy was terrible where I lived in the 70s...and if you did not work, you did not eat.

If a person did not waste so much money on luxuries today, and drug their lazy ass to work/maybe got a second or third job like we did...they could easily buy a home, save money, etc. They just need to make good choices and a few sacrifices.

[1990C4S]

Median house prices were 3.5x median income in 1985. $22.4k income versus $78k house cost.

That ratio was 5.8 in 2022, $74.6k and $433k.

Probably over 6 today. On average, houses do not appear to be more affordable, they are more like double.

[stevej37]

Originally Posted by LakeCleElum

Bought my 1st home at 22 and paid 50% down to assume a great loan. Started working 7 days a week at a gas station at age 15, summer on a fishing boat and started college with enough to pay my way. 2 months into college, was bored and worked 30 to 40 hrs a week, thereby saving the money to buy the house. Graduated from a private college with no debt. House paid off by age 26 and never had a home loan since. Never had a car loan. Always cash.
Really don't see that possible in todays market.

Sounds like my case...except I paid off the house at age 35 and have never had a car loan.


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