If you are "self made," could you do it again in this economy?

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by javadog

I can't understand this level of thinking. Or, maybe I should say, lack thereof...

Just wow...

i dont understand 1. why anyone would think they could be self made, and 2. why this would be a point of pride, or desirable in any possible way.

from public schools to having roads, everything humans have built, they have built together. including you. including me.

its very fashionable for people to conveniently forget that excellent, underpaid teacher who taught them algebra that lead them to being a great engineer, or that without that bus/train service, they never could have gotten that significantly better job. or without that uncle that helped them rebuild those lawnmower engines when they were a teenager and that kept them off drugs. meanwhile, without the invention of antibiotics, we'd all be dead of a minor injury long ago, never mind the haber process, or watts steam engine ... everything we do, we do together. thats been humanities only evolutionary advantage, the fact that we can form teams and cooperate.



self made people, if they exist at all, they are hermits, who are subsistence farmers, and they usually die young, of malnutrition.

so if your not dying of malnutrition attempting to grow all your own food, make all your own tools, and cure that infection without anti-biotics, you are *not* a self made man.

you would never ever want to be a self made man. they lead **** lives, and die young because winter came early, or they slipped and fell, or a better preditor came along and ate all their bunnies. the lifespan of a human, alone, making their own way in life can typically be measured in days, sometimes months. certainly not decades.

[RNajarian]

I often ask a similar question but the difference is . . .

“What would have been different in your life if with the same skill set (education/ abilities) would you be successful (assuming the language wasn’t an issue) if you were in a different country?”

If you were a mechanic, would you have been as successful in France/England/Korea etc. as you were in the United States (or your current home country)?

To answer LWJs question . . .

I was in my second year of dental school when I was 22. Tuition at USC was about $40, 000 a year. Now it is about $70,000. I would have had to take out some serious loans to complete the program . . . likely I would have enlisted earlier in the Air Force to try and cover my education expenses.

So MAYBE I would be able to make it.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

no one is self made, so no, you couldn't "do it again" because you didn't do it in the first place.

What a racist (and misogynist) thing to say:

Self-made is used to describe people who have become successful and rich through their own efforts, especially if they started life without money, education, or high social status.

Back to topic, regulations that have 'developed' over the past 10 years would make it impossible for us to do what we did in the 80's-2000's, instead favoring unlicensed & uninsured contractors, or large contractors that can absorb staff attorneys.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by dad911

What a racist (and misogynist) thing to say

swing and a miss.

another thing to bring up about the self made notion, is the notion that even under the most limited case where you could define "self made" you are still talking mostly about a family, either your family of origin (you'd be dead if your mom didnt feed you), or the family you formed, doing labor on your behalf, so that you could be successful. ie, your wife etc.

so like, by no possible definition is anyone "self made" nor would you ever want to be "self made"

[cockerpunk]

looks at something like IP generation.

i have nearly a dozen patents. that is legal right to claim i did something, i invented something, something no one else had ever thought of and done. i did it. its as legal and solid as rock as possible. i can say, "i made that real"

and i did that, after 16 years of education, years of being supported by my parents, and years in an industry, that people spend hundred of millions of dollars to create a market for, that my company invests in with capital to the tune of tens of millions of dollars that they make from the technology.

and i took the next, obvious, step to me.

now, i can take credit for that ... but i didnt do it alone. everyone who ever bought an iphone was part of it. everyone who buys sandpaper was a part of it. i didnt, wake up while subsistence farming and go, here is how we are going to revolutionize micro optical production! no, i spend years not just getting educated, and having experience, but i also leveraged an expanding market made of hundreds of millions of people, a new technology that companies became very interested in and spent tens of millions of dollars developing, and then there is me, at the tip, at the end of all of that, according to the legal system, i invented that.

but i stand on the shoulders of giants. and others will come after me and stand on my shoulders.

and thats just human existence. being a part of that. being a part of that system.

they dont write history books or give patents to self made men, because they die, in the mountains, of a totally preventable infection, or malnutrition, or because they couldnt attract a person to take care of them when they were sick (they were self made after-all right?)

we not only need one another, we actually thrive as individuals *better* when we have each other.

[GH85Carrera]

One of my "friends of a friend" has a kid that made millions from YouTube. He bought his dad a Lamborghini for father's day.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

i dont understand 1. why anyone would think they could be self made, and 2. why this would be a point of pride, or desirable in any possible way.

from public schools to having roads, everything humans have built, they have built together. including you. including me.

its very fashionable for people to conveniently forget that excellent, underpaid teacher who taught them algebra that lead them to being a great engineer, or that without that bus/train service, they never could have gotten that significantly better job. or without that uncle that helped them rebuild those lawnmower engines when they were a teenager and that kept them off drugs. meanwhile, without the invention of antibiotics, we'd all be dead of a minor injury long ago, never mind the haber process, or watts steam engine ... everything we do, we do together. thats been humanities only evolutionary advantage, the fact that we can form teams and cooperate.



self made people, if they exist at all, they are hermits, who are subsistence farmers, and they usually die young, of malnutrition.

so if your not dying of malnutrition attempting to grow all your own food, make all your own tools, and cure that infection without anti-biotics, you are *not* a self made man.

you would never ever want to be a self made man. they lead **** lives, and die young because winter came early, or they slipped and fell, or a better preditor came along and ate all their bunnies. the lifespan of a human, alone, making their own way in life can typically be measured in days, sometimes months. certainly not decades.

What an absurd reduction.

You forgot to mention conception, gestation, and what comes after that.

There’s a forest out there, behind all those trees.

[porsche tech]

First time I think I have ever agreed with cockerpunk. It’d be pretty smug of one to say they were “self made”.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by porsche tech

First time I think I have ever agreed with cockerpunk. It’d be pretty smug of one to say they were “self made”.

Well, put it into the context of how normal people use that term. Take two comparable individuals, fresh out of high school or college, and consider that one may make vastly more of himself than the other.

To think that the individual plays no role in that is beyond ridiculous.

[berettafan]

If self made means well off then i cannot answer. But if self made includes self employed and bills are paid/house soon to be owned outright/kids able to attend good college without enormous debt then i'm your guy! relative to my roots i've climbed a couple rungs and will be the first in my line to hopefully leave something to my kids.

So assuming the latter my answer is no i could not do it again. The reason is technology. The tech that scaled so well for me getting started is getting far more expensive and consolidating in a way that will eventually force small operators in the tax industry out of business.

[rcooled]

Originally Posted by javadog

Well, put it into the context of how normal people use that term.

This is the issue with cocker's point of view. He's going way too literal with the term "self-made". He sees it as someone who was turned out into the world with no resources and who has somehow managed to feed, clothe, and shelter themselves, living by their wits alone, with absolutely no dependence on other people or on the trappings of modern civilization.
I think most people use this term to describe someone with the ambition, drive and smarts to create a life for themselves outside of the usual models of working day-to-day for a paycheck, or plugging into some corporate structure and sticking it out until retirement.

[javadog]

Yep, you got it.

[KFC911]

To clarify myself ... I took it figuratively ... my parents made me ... literally.and in every way .... then college.

At 22-24.....like most .... nada, zip, zilch, nada ..... now go

It's a relative thing

I just "winged it" after that .... no regerts

I lived the bleeding edge of data communucations tech.... corps own the patents .... means doodly squat. It was a hoot CP .... workin' for da man

Thanks mom .... and dad !

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by javadog

Well, put it into the context of how normal people use that term. Take two comparable individuals, fresh out of high school or college, and consider that one may make vastly more of himself than the other.

To think that the individual plays no role in that is beyond ridiculous.

"if you ignore all those decades of support, education, and life experience gifted to from other people that totally prove his point ... then my point must be true!"

i mean if you just ignore the entire list of reasons you cant be a self made man, then you can be self made man i guess lol.

cool story bro.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by rcooled

This is the issue with cocker's point of view. He's going way too literal with the term "self-made". He sees it as someone who was turned out into the world with no resources and who has somehow managed to feed, clothe, and shelter themselves, living by their wits alone, with absolutely no dependence on other people or on the trappings of modern civilization.
I think most people use this term to describe someone with the ambition, drive and smarts to create a life for themselves outside of the usual models of working day-to-day for a paycheck, or plugging into some corporate structure and sticking it out until retirement.

those decades of support are not equal. those years of education are not equal.

so none of these things are equal.

right? some people start off life with an ivy league education, and a trust fun of millions of dollars, and a job at their parents company ... and some people dont.

so there is no way to equalize these things.

no matter who you are, the support you received throughout your life, will have an effect on your outcomes in life. period. end of story. there is no reality in which someone is a self made anything. it is a fantasy of some men to think they are special without actually being special in any way.

[masraum]

I've got a buddy that came from a sheiße background. Lived in bad/horrible neighborhoods. Worthless parents that "sold Avon" and had the kids deliver it (was actually drugs, not cosmetics). Grew up fighting as a minority, drinking, doing drugs, and being someone that you'd never expect to make it. He's doing pretty well these days. He's smart, a hard worker, conscientious, and a good father that does everything that he can for his family, all of that despite his background.

I'm doing OK. I had a pretty good background, great parents, and a pretty good primary education. My parents sent me to college, but I had no idea what I wanted to do and quit before I finished. I floundered for a few years, but eventually figured out what I wanted to do and pursued it. I'm doing pretty well these days (in spite of myself). If I'd finished college, I can't guaranty that I'd be someplace better or happier than I am today.

One different decision (that may have seemed insignificant at the time) could make all of the difference in the world to where we all are today (better or worse).

I feel like I would have an equal chance of turning out similarly if I was a kid today vs 40 years ago.

[Seahawk]

Posts deleted.

Express opinions, not personal disdain.

[faverymi]

Moishe Mana

Self made billionaire. Very interesting story

[rwest]

In the spirit of or intention of the original post, I grew up in a decent neighborhood, was fed, clothed, housed, went to good public schools and was surrounded by good examples.

I wasn’t given any meaningful amounts of money or large items- bought my first car, a 914 and paid for it, gas, insurance and repairs all with my own money.

I didn’t go to college or trade school. I didn’t get married or have any children.

In my teens, I babysat and had a paper route. Babysitting would still be a job now; paper routes wouldn’t be done by a child on a bike anymore as back then most houses subscribed, but now the territories would be many, many miles in area and need to be done by a car.

In HS, I cleaned restrooms at our church and washed dishes. Both of these could still be done.

After HS, I did custodial work and worked my way up to maintenance work as well, finally getting a job at a school district and finally at a City, where I worked my way up to and retired as a middle manager. This could still happen in this age. I also did several PT jobs and did as much OT as offered.

I bought my house at 28 years old and could have bought a 7-800 sqft post war house, but I got a much smaller house to have small payments; which helped in early retirement. I know that houses are very expensive these days, but going with an older, smaller house might be doable.

I do think a person could in a similar situation have the same outcome. The work hard not smart career path is still viable in my opinion.

[stevej37]

Other than buying a home....DO NOT BORROW MONEY.

That's all I've got.