Tesla values

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by creaturecat

EV sales are skyrocketing world-wide.
it's an indisputable fact.

Unfortunately in some markets it’s via government mandates as opposed to the free market. I’m all for people having choices and see no issues with EVs as a viable option for transportation. Where I have an issue is when the government or my tax dollars starts to force a particular option as opposed to leaving the choice to me.

Also worth noting, the small geographic size of many other nations tend to make them better suited to EVs, particularly as an only car. Similar to why EVs are actually not a bad choice for an urban commuter. The vast expanses of rural America, not so much.

[tdw28210]

Everyone who wanted an EV mostly has one. Rivian is begging me to follow through with an order but until the range nears 500 miles I'm not willing to pull the trigger. Factor in concern over battery replacement costs as cars get near the 10 year old mark and it's not surprising. Good to see manufacturers pivot back to ICE and hybrid. Pure EV's aren't a solution for most Americans who only own a single car.

[otto_kretschmer]

If there was a diesel option I would be interested.

[creaturecat]

indisputable facts being disputed.
OWP has a point. - not certain how much of an influence the credits have. ....... won't delve into the government subsidization of oil companies.

[aschen]

Its not like non EVs are driven by free market customer choice......


Literally everything about modern non EVs is dictated by US and worldwide regulations

[greglepore]

Batteries aren't cheap. Peeps that have them might as well upgrade to new before the credits disappear.

[unclebilly]

I did a 24 hour test drive with an X back in 2017, put money down on a Model S before they came out (and then I bailed). In the last 2 weeks, I've been traveling and used uber a lot. I also tried to buy a Hummer EV the morning they were announced but was too late by 7:00AM MST.

I've ridden in quite a few Teslas but also a BYD, a Kia electric, a Bolt (volt?), a Hyundai electric, Toyota hybrid. I also have a Tundra hybrid for my daily driver.

The BYD was the 'nicest' car of the bunch to ride in and looked great. Tesla has the best traffic detection(?) screen. Its impressive.

Electric car demand is still strong in some places but these places have government based incentives or legislation forcing the issue. Electric cars make sense for some people but not everyone. Personally, I think hybrids make the most sense and have no regrets in buying one... yet.

Teslas and other electrics are still pretty cool but wont fit my rural lifestyle currently.

[onewhippedpuppy]

I’m honestly not an EV hater I just think consumers should have the choice without government intervention. If I lived in a major urban area and commuted daily I would probably consider one. A Tesla Model S P85D is still the most violently accelerating car I have ever driven.

[brp914]

What's the state of lithium battery recycling? I read there are a handful of businesses doing it, or attempting it, but don't know whether it's cost effective versus mining.

[Arizona_928]

There’s a hand full of companies that shred the batteries in the US and send off the material (REE) to ccp owned refineries in third world **** holes. These factories then use conflict minerals that are mixed with some recycled material. Then it’s sold as clean conflict free material.

US does not have the capabilities

[ckcarr]

I bought a Tesla Model S Plaid for $100k off, and it's faster than my Bugatti Veyron???

[creaturecat]

RE: EV "subsidization".
In 2023, the Government of Canada provided at least $18.553 billion in financial
support to fossil fuel and petrochemical companies.

there are many recycling depots (for EV batteries) in Canada. a company in Trail BC collects batteries from across North America.

[brp914]

Originally Posted by Arizona_928

There’s a hand full of companies that shred the batteries in the US and send off the material (REE) to ccp owned refineries in third world **** holes. These factories then use conflict minerals that are mixed with some recycled material. Then it’s sold as clean conflict free material.

US does not have the capabilities

That's what I saw. A youtube titled as "recycling" showed the black muck from the shredding process. I was wondering well, now what? It didn't say. I guess the new owners could get a bumper sticker that says "we bought it before we knew it wasn't conflict-free". "Conflict" = cobalt?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Is there such a thing as “ethically sourced” rare earth metals? Aren’t they all from some variety of slave or child labor?

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by brp914

What's the state of lithium battery recycling? I read there are a handful of businesses doing it, or attempting it, but don't know whether it's cost effective versus mining.

Re-use is bigger and more efficient than recycling so far, though there are several recycling businesses in North America.
A lot of used car batteries are being used in stationary applications.
When a battery gets too inefficient for a car it is still a good battery, it just not efficient enough for the demands of a car (weighs too much for the amount of energy it can store). It works fine if it's sitting still, storing energy for a stationary application. I think a car battery is declared "dead" when it's storage capacity drops to something like 80% of its new capacity.

[Arizona_928]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Is there such a thing as “ethically sourced” rare earth metals? Aren’t they all from some variety of slave or child labor?

Yes. Slave labor.
Mining done by hand with pick axes and shovels. No machinery.

Cobalt is the big one, but it’s others. Lithium is relatively easy to source.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Is there such a thing as “ethically sourced” rare earth metals? Aren’t they all from some variety of slave or child labor?

Here is a download for you. No, I'm not in the mining business, but I invest from time to time in the companies.

Currently most rare earth ore is mined in China, Australia, US, India, Malaysia, various other countries, and - this is the important part - all shipped to China for processing to refined rare earth materials. China totally dominates the processing of rare earth ore and thus the supply of refined rare earth material - like >95% share. China also mines the majority of rare earth ore, but that is mostly because it has the processing facilities, not because it has the majority of rare earth deposits. Rare earth deposits are all over the world, they aren't particularly "rare" in that sense.

Chinese rare earth mining and processing doesn't use slave/child labor (at least, its not thought to be a big part of the operations, though there could be a sprinkling of it), but it is environmentally very damaging - which is part of how China dominated the market, the government was willing to heavily pollute its own land and water and other countries were happy to let it do so.

Some Australian and US companies are building rare earth processing facilities. Lynas has these facilities in Malaysia and Australia, and MP Materials has these in California. They are doing the processing in a way that isn't as polluting as what the Chinese are doing, and some new processing methods are being developed that are even less environmentally damaging, those will probably be used by the Australian and US companies.

So the West is making pretty good progress at reducing its dependence on China for processed rare earths, and governments have supported the companies with all sorts of grants (many from defense department sources, for obvious reasons).

EXCEPT that the West has, as far as I can tell, done nothing to address the other way that China controls the market, which is that periodically China will dump rare earths on the global market, drive the price down, and hold it there until the Western companies go out of business or pull back on expansion projects. It does this about once a decade.

You would think that the West (US, Japan, Europe, etc) would have placed import controls or targeted tariffs or anti-dumping penalties on Chinese rare earth producers, to prevent China from doing this. However, it hasn't - in the US, neither party has ever taken any effective steps, and that includes Trump and Biden. Why - I don't know, but I'd guess the companies that use rare earth materials have whined about raising their costs, and those are a lot bigger and louder companies than the very small companies trying to produce rare earths.

Disclosure - I bought some Lynas and some MP a few months ago, betting that trade wars will be good for these stocks. Owned them for a while a few years ago too.

P.S. I see mention of cobalt etc. That is not a "rare earth". Nothing I said above applies to cobalt, or lithium either. I'm talking only about rare earths - neodynium, dysprosium, cerium, praseodymium, etc.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Interesting read thanks. Obviously this is way more than an EV issue, it’s more like an “everything electronic” issue.

[Arizona_928]

That’s a nice white wash way to say it.

[G50]

They’ve sold massive volume in the last 5-10 years or so.

Something close to 50% of all new car registrations in San Diego county last year were Teslas, for example.

Many people don’t want a car once it nears being out of warranty.

Massive sales means, 3-4 years later, a huge supply of used cars coming on market.