It's amazing to me how many people want an old 911...

[look 171]

Originally Posted by masraum

I LOVE the air cooled cars. I am very sad that they are now priced in a way that I'm unlikely to have another.

I get what you guys are saying about restomods and heavily modified cars.

So for you guys that hate the restomods, do you also hate Jack Olsen's car? It's heavily modified and has had a motor swap.

Not to mention the carbon body and all its panels. He even has a big wing on it at one time, I think for track use.

At one time, I restored historic homes and some times, we go in and paint all the old wood work demanded by the designers. There are times, I feel say that this is happenning but most times, that's the way it is. There is no right or wrong. Sometimes, I can wait to paint it fast enough to cover some really bad designs even if its 90 years old.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

... that is nothing like an old 911. Anything from ultra modern state of the art EFI on maybe the more innocuous and less "noticeable" end of the scale to the latest I see over on the tech forum, a 996 transmission swap. LS engines, completely reconfigured suspensions and brakes and on and on. I guess I just don't get it. These are very charming, quirky little cars, dated for sure, but it seems that many are eager to remove every last vestige of their "essence", for whatever reason. Seems like not only a fool's errand to me, but even more than that, some kind of an insult, at least at some level. There is already no shortage of cars that are already what these people want their old 911 to someday become. No need to ruin another example of a finite supply of a very unique little car. Just my opinion, and obviously some disagree, I just think it's a real shame to see these cars bastardized.

IDK, the Motronic wasn't a great system. The 915 was pretty much an antiquated transmission even for the 80's. Anything that will make the car less problematic, to me, is a good thing. The stuff Sal and some of the other tuners do with the 3.2 is incredible. Suspension and brake upgrades just add to the performance and handling so I see no problem with taking good and making it better. Everyone has their thing. Some like the nostalgia of the car while others see it as something classic that they can improve upon and still have own a recognizable icon.

[David Inc.]

I prefer cars with period correct modifications, but I'm not going to yuck anybody's yum so long as they execute it well and tastefully.

[onewhippedpuppy]

I have a feeling that if any of you were given a Singer, you’d be pretty damn happy. Cue the “nah man not for me” in 3…2…1…

[herr_oberst]

Your car, your money, your preference.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I think a few of you are missing the point. There is a huge difference between "heavily modified" (like Jack's car) and the wholesale changes some make. Hey, my car is "heavily modified", but it is done with "period correct" parts that were in widespread use on these cars back when it was new. No one racing a 911 in 1972 would look at my car (or Jack's) and wonder "what on earth is that?".

We're talking things like this 996 transmission swap, requiring the total elimination of the torsion bar tubes and all surrounding structure. We're talking a car that was recently in Excellence that began life as (I believe) a 3.2 Carrera that now has essentially a 997 GT3 suspension under it, along with its brakes. We're talking LS swaps. Electric motor swaps. Carbon brake discs.

We're not talking swapping your 2.0 "T" motor for a 2.7 RS motor. We're not talking welding RS or Turbo flares to your car. We're not talking heavier torsion and sway bars. We're not talking going from M calipers to aluminum S, or A, or wide A calipers. We're not talking adding a duck or whale tail. None of this fundamentally changes the essence, the character of the car.

I didn't really think that most of us would be talking about Jack's car. But it is pretty extreme. It's one of those things where someone says "restomods" suck. (and I agree on many of the ones that are made these days). But, I'd happily drive a '68 Chevelle with a crate motor running EFI instead of a carb, disk brakes instead of drums, and 16" retro wheels instead of 14" wheels, and uprated suspension (springs, sways, control arms, etc.... I would leave the dash, but would probably add an autometer 3 gauge cluster. Power windows would be nice and a decent, retro inspired stereo. No digital dash. No crazy interior. No 20" chrome wheels. I want the character of an old car, but something that you can count on to start with a turn of the key, run reliably, stop and turn a bit safer than my old '65 Impala on 14" wheels with 4 wheel drum brakes.

As for a 911. I'd be happy with something like my old car, a 3.2L Carrera w/G50 that's been lowered with upgraded torsion bars and/or anti-roll bars. I'd probably love something like an R-gruppe car or Jack's car.

But yeah, dropping a water cooled motor in an old car or a water cooled car's transmission (why?), I don't get that.

I'm not big into some of the crazy swaps, like WRX turbo-4 into a 911, or Tesla motor into 911. But I guess if someone is starting with a trashed tub, and the option was send a tub to the junk yard or build something crazy, then it's better (or maybe better) that the car is still running around. The people that find the VIN plate from an old Ferrari and build a car around the VIN plate and say that they "restored an original 250GT SWB" is kind of silly too.

[onewhippedpuppy]

According to the interwebs, Porsche built in the neighborhood of 65,000 964s. I think Singer has built a little over 500 “reimagined” 964s, with a handful of others pushing out very small quantities. RUF really doesn’t count because they are building entirely new air cooled models with their own RUF VIN. So it you call it 600 964s that have been “hacked up” for the millionaire class, that’s still less than 1% of total 964 production. Not exactly consuming every 964 out there.

[gregpark]

Color me guilty. I can't leave anything alone. I lower my sports cars. raised my jeep and upgrade suspension on everything. Make it go faster, I'm in to an extent. I've even lowered my ancient 911 and run (gasp) low profile tires. But it's so much better to me and that's what matters

[masraum]

Originally Posted by look 171

Not to mention the carbon body and all its panels. He even has a big wing on it at one time, I think for track use.

At one time, I restored historic homes and some times, we go in and paint all the old wood work demanded by the designers. There are times, I feel say that this is happenning but most times, that's the way it is. There is no right or wrong. Sometimes, I can wait to paint it fast enough to cover some really bad designs even if its 90 years old.

Oh yeah, he goes all out with the aero when he's on the track (or at least, did at one point), but it's all removable.

I think he even experimented with side skirts at one time, but in this one, he's got a huge front damn and splitter, huge rear wing, and homemade diffuser. And I don't know if he still runs it but at one time he also had a pretty full, flat underbody panel.
[IMG][/IMG]

[masraum]

Originally Posted by gregpark

Color me guilty. I can't leave anything alone. I lower my sports cars. raised my jeep and upgrade suspension on everything. Make it go faster, I'm in to an extent. I've even lowered my ancient 911 and run (gasp) low profile tires. But it's so much better to me and that's what matters

The only thing that keeps me from doing mods is money. I hate to part with large sums of it, and nothing is cheap on a Porsche.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by masraum

...I'd probably love something like an R-gruppe car...

While at times quite heavily modified, our cars are very much in keeping with the original "flavor" of the Sports Purpose 911. Our "Bible", originally published in 1968:

[speeder]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

According to the interwebs, Porsche built in the neighborhood of 65,000 964s. I think Singer has built a little over 500 “reimagined” 964s, with a handful of others pushing out very small quantities. RUF really doesn’t count because they are building entirely new air cooled models with their own RUF VIN. So it you call it 600 964s that have been “hacked up” for the millionaire class, that’s still less than 1% of total 964 production. Not exactly consuming every 964 out there.

I’d be surprised if that is an accurate count of 964 production, the early ‘90s were extremely slow sales years for Porsche and in ‘93 and ‘94, they hardly sold any. This was due to a number of factors but mainly an economic recession and steeply rising prices for their cars due to currency exchange rates and the fact that they were putting a lot more technology in their cars.

I worked at a Porsche dealer in 1986 and it was their biggest sales year ever at the time, (seriously eclipsed later with the 996/Boxster/Cayenne/etc.) . They sold 30k cars in the USA that year and it was double the previous average but it included all models, not just the 911. I sold my 964 to Singer for what I thought was a great price in about 2016(?) and I regret it hugely. I can’t afford to get another one now.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I have a feeling that if any of you were given a Singer, you’d be pretty damn happy. Cue the “nah man not for me” in 3…2…1…

If I won a Singer in a raffle, I’d put it up for sale very quickly. They are amazing but I’d rather have the million dollars 8 ways from Sunday.

[look 171]

I am not a track rat, but have been to many club races and done a few laps myself back when I started, young and dumb and must have the need for speed. There were so many guys that installed superior coil overs under their air cool race cars. Lets be honest, it is a superior suspension system and the cost to do that is sky high. People are jsut going to do what they do, water cool engines in long hoods, V8s, and subi motors. Just look at Renegade. They have been doing that for years or some of those early german tuners with their body kits that look like crap, Strosek comes to mind but some of us sure like DP.

[look 171]

I jsut looked, Strosek is still in business. Its much better then those tiny little head lights of the past. Not that its that much better to me but a lot better then before.

https://www.strosek.de/en/strosek-models/#mega30

[WPOZZZ]

I love power, especially turbo power! I've had 2 relatively stock turbos, a 79 930 and a 91 964 turbo. I had a 996 with a tune and bigger hybrid turbos, an 86 with a 3.4, K29..., and a 77 930 with a punched out 3.2. Now, I want to keep the new 79 as stock as I can. I want to enjoy it how it came from the factory.

[A930Rocket]

I went the modded track route with my 930 and don’t regret it because everyone was doing it back then. 90s - 2000s

What everybody does now, it’s up to them.

With my 86 911, it’s 100% stock. No mods this time. I get a lot of compliments, maybe because of the color?

[porsche tech]

Originally Posted by herr_oberst

Your car, your money, your preference.

All it takes to ruin a nice car is money.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Jeff's post rings true and thankfully it's only a handful of cars being effected. The fact is the 911 owner of yesteryear is a dying breed. But like all things, it will come around full circle, someday.

The primary modification on my cars has always been weight loss first. From there, adding a 3.2 w/ headers, muffler & chip has been a favorite. Then gearing and suspension. I've never done anything not easily reversible and now with values the way they are, can't, mostly because the cars are all custom factory orders/builds. Recently bought NOS, packages never opened, Smart Racing sway bars for the M491 to go along with a brand new suspension refresh with Fox and Rebel Racing struts & bearings. The problem is drilling the front through body holes. Can't bring myself to do it.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

....... The problem is drilling the front through body holes. Can't bring myself to do it.