"Under God..." is this an issue? - Page 2

tabs · 03-26-2004, 12:11 AM

Let me think now...how does the pledge effect my life.... Hmmmm

Glasgow 911SC · Glasgow 911SC's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by 911ctS
O wait.... not really any other countries take americans in. But we let everyone accross our open a$$ boarders. hmmmm.

kind of a strange statement to make when the country is run by immigrants and the 'natives' are a tiny minority.

SRISER · 03-26-2004, 03:34 AM

Activism is a way for unimportant people to feel like they are important. This is a total non-issue. Next case...

911ctS · 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamB
Well, you let people in. Let them in and work and stay (legally) is a different story. I couldn't emmigrate to the US. Not a chance in hell (well, Green Card lottery is a chance in hell I suppose).

Hell, don't do it legally!! Just hop accross the mexican or canadian boarder like everyone else does. We don't enforce our boarders or our immigration laws for $hit. Just come over here, work for some rich capatalistic pig at $5/hr. Then maybe if your lucky one of our great presidents will give all the illegals amnesty for the Nth time. Its an F'in joke completely driven by the "all mighty dollar" be happy your in NZ. Im thinking about coming your way. I hear the gold coast of Ausie is nice.

911ctS · 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Glasgow 911SC
kind of a strange statement to make when the country is run by immigrants and the 'natives' are a tiny minority.

Well is that what you want? A country run by a bunch of immigrants, driving the natives into a further smaller minority. I know technically, thats what America is, but when does it stop?

Just seems like all anyone cares about is here and now. hmmm

SRISER · 03-26-2004, 11:47 AM

I have no problem with immigration, so as long as it is done LEGALLY. It is the ILLEGAL aliens using our education system, housing system, food, medical etc on my dime.

I certainly have no problem funding these TEMPORARY programs for people who need it and are citizens or are becoming citizens not those breaking FEDERAL LAW.

If you are here illegally, I fully support rounding all of the federal law breaking potential felons up and shipping thier a$$ back to where ever they came from.

And none of this silly "let's have two school systems...one for those that speak English and one for those that don't.." like in California. What a load of dog *****. Immigrants of yesteryear who came to this country certainly maintained their own language but they learned (shock, horror) English. Yes folks, they actually adapted to the culture that they wanted to become part of. We are doing it the other way around which is wrong.

dd74 · 03-26-2004, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SRISER
I have no problem with immigration, so as long as it is done LEGALLY. It is the ILLEGAL aliens using our education system, housing system, food, medical etc on my dime.

I certainly have no problem funding these TEMPORARY programs for people who need it and are citizens or are becoming citizens not those breaking FEDERAL LAW.

If you are here illegally, I fully support rounding all of the federal law breaking potential felons up and shipping thier a$$ back to where ever they came from.

And none of this silly "let's have two school systems...one for those that speak English and one for those that don't.." like in California. What a load of dog *****. Immigrants of yesteryear who came to this country certainly maintained their own language but they learned (shock, horror) English. Yes folks, they actually adapted to the culture that they wanted to become part of. We are doing it the other way around which is wrong.

Sam: you make some valid points that I'd like to address (don't read on if you've heard this before...)

1. Our economy (CA's) would fall apart at the seams if there would be a sudden stop to immigration. Illegal immigration is what buses our table, cuts our lawn, washes our cars and cleans our houses/apartments. Quite honestly, I haven't yet met a legal immigrant who does this and is not expected to be paid three or four times as much as an illegal.

2. I don't see the viability in denying illegals health care - at least basic. I know it's a financial drain. But I've always feared that from an untreated body of people, disease can break out and effect a much larger portion of the population. Health care for everyone, regardless of status, should be provided only so that everyone is protected.

3. I completely agree with you with Spanish/English classes and the myriad of other bilingual literature we have to contend with as an English-speaking country. We need the English language as, if anything, our common cultural bind. It's all we really have given America's diverse nature.

Given that, wholeheartedly major crackdowns need to be implemented at the Mexican border - not necessarily Canadian - but Mexican. The people need to be documented for the second point that I lay out. Collecting taxes from them, however, would be more difficult as most illegals are paid in cash.

911ctS · 02:58 PM

Right on Sam! Thats what I was trying to say. Just get worked up on some of these threads though. (just trying to preserve my country for futrure generations)

I know this is shocking for some.... but I manage to, eat at home (most of the time), mow my own lawn, wash my own cars, and pretty much fend for myself. So, naturally I dont want to give illegals a damn dime, and if they need heath care... then go home and get it!!!

O ya... I do appologize for turning this into a immigration thread, don't know what happened. Anyway back on topic...

SRISER · 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dd74
Sam: you make some valid points that I'd like to address (don't read on if you've heard this before...)

1. Our economy (CA's) would fall apart at the seams if there would be a sudden stop to immigration. Illegal immigration is what buses our table, cuts our lawn, washes our cars and cleans our houses/apartments. Quite honestly, I haven't yet met a legal immigrant who does this and is not expected to be paid three or four times as much as an illegal.

2. I don't see the viability in denying illegals health care - at least basic. I know it's a financial drain. But I've always feared that from an untreated body of people, disease can break out and effect a much larger portion of the population. Health care for everyone, regardless of status, should be provided only so that everyone is protected.

3. I completely agree with you with Spanish/English classes and the myriad of other bilingual literature we have to contend with as an English-speaking country. We need the English language as, if anything, our common cultural bind. It's all we really have given America's diverse nature.

Given that, wholeheartedly major crackdowns need to be implemented at the Mexican border - not necessarily Canadian - but Mexican. The people need to be documented for the second point that I lay out. Collecting taxes from them, however, would be more difficult as most illegals are paid in cash.

1. Your economy is falling apart right now...mostly due to liberal lawyers setting economic policy in your state. Using the arguement that illegals provide services justifies allowing them to break the law is the same argument that drug dealers can use. They provide a service. They add to the economy when the spend their hard earned drug money on hookers, booze and 28" wheels for their ride right?

2. Deny them everything. They are breaking the law. Send them back to their county. By providing them free health care you have put out a carrot for others to follow with no stick on the othe side. You are inviting more illegal and (with 20% classified as criminals) dangeous people to cross into this country.

Come here legally and I am all for giving you services...TEMPORARILY.

3. We agree. Western culture is under assault. There is nothing wrong with Western European culture. I am very proud of my roots (Welsh, German, French and American Indian) but I don't call myself a German-American, or French-American, or whatever. I am an American who speaks English.

Look, America is the finest country ever established by man in the history of the planet. I realize that folks in other country's would not agree and they shouldn't...they should be proud of THEIR country. Kinda like when you are on a sports team...you always think you the best even if some areas of the team could be improved...patrotism is right. I am a flag waver and damn proud of it.

Sorry for the rant...I just see BOTH political parties (although one more than the other) giving our country away just to get a vote and it is wrong and it is very sad.

350HP930 · 03-27-2004, 07:06 AM

Freedom of religion includes the right to be free from religion.

No child should be forced to be brow beat into taking part in reciting a pledge to a nation 'under god'.

Why am I not suprised to see our religious and blindly patriotic folk dodging that simple fact?

I wonder how many people here would think the pledge is OK other religious partisans had slipped in 'one nation under our mother earth goddess' into the previously secular pledge?

84porsche · 84porsche's Garage

Their is so much to be said about this issue if it truly is an issue. I don't necessarily think it is. The great thing about this country is that we have so many freedoms that we take for granted and we can. Is it really a problem that we have this in the Pledge of Allegiance or on our currency? What is truly going to happen to that person that has to say "under God" in the Pledge. Are they going to suffer, have an emotional breakdown, get struck by lightning.
Everybody is allowed the freedom to think and do what they like given that the laws aren't violated. I went to Catholic school growing up (not to long ago and I am still growing up) but I was not Catholic but I still studied the religion and stood up every morning and prayed and said the "Pledge of Allegiance" and I am not any worse off for it. I grew up with religion and if anything for some it fills a hole in their lives and it provides a moral guideline to live by.
I believe in God and I am proud to say so and I know when I take the Porsche past 100 that their is a guardian angel keeping up with me somehow. I have seen and been apart of many religions through friends , schools etc but a belief in a higher being is not a bad thing. It only becomes bad when people "kill in the name of God" and that is people trying to control others through the fear of this higher being.

dd74 · 03-27-2004, 07:49 AM

There's been talk lately of not allowing officials to deport illegal alien women who get pregnant in the U.S. back to their home countries (Mexico in most cases). That if the child is "conceived" in the U.S., it is a U.S. citizen, and thus the mother and child are protected under U.S. law, and in theory, both are citizens.

To go partisan on this issue is too easy (pro or anti abortion, etc). Nonetheless, I'd like to hear some opinions on this.

SRISER · 03-27-2004, 08:52 AM

The child has to be BORN here, not concieved here...if that were true there would be a lot of US kids who are really Mexican, French and Japanese...where somebody has sex is not the place of citizenship.

ZOA NOM · ZOA NOM's Garage

350, the child is the responsibility of the mother, and the mother alone, because the father has no custodial rights. They weren't married. Until the child reaches a certain age, the mother decides what the child will learn, period. In our society, that's the way it is. Otherwise, the decisions your children make couldn't be held against you.

As for religion in the pledge, I disagree that "under God" should be absolutely interpreted as a specific religion's reference. It is too general for that interpretation. Also, the context of it's use is patriotic rather than religious.

350HP930 · 03-27-2004, 10:33 AM

Who cares about custody rights or if you think those words were inserted for reasons of 'patriotism'.

To require children in public schools to state oaths that contain even a generic religious reference is wrong.

Just cause a bunch of religious folk disagree with this doesn't change the fact that the 1st amendment states 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof'. I don't see how that can be interpreted to think that the state can make kids state a pledge to a god and country combo. Requiring chidren, even with an opt out available, to state some god and country prayer before the school day is nothing I wan't my daughter being subjected to either so I say more power to this guy.

Just because some people on this board don't mind giving false lip service to oaths and other statements they disagree with doesn't mean that everyone feels that way about their beliefs.

I'm sure a lot of non-christians would have had an easy time during the Inquisition if they had only given lip service to converting to christianity and accepting christ as their savior. Is that the kind of logic you want to use to dismiss the fact that oath controversy is legitimate.

ZOA NOM · ZOA NOM's Garage

Well, we do live in a Democracy where the majority rules, so your vote is duly noted, and we'll see where it all ends up when the dust settles.

Why even pledge allegiance at all? Why not just let everybody just do whatever they like, and as long as it doesn't actually physically harm someone, no biggie? Free love and incense for everyone.

Don't get me wrong, I don't even attend church, but if it isn't plain to see that the moral decay in this country is tied to the distance society seems to be placing between itself and faith, then I don't think my babbling will change any views.

By the way, you don't balk every payday when those bills show up with "In God We Trust" all over them do you?

350HP930 · 03-27-2004, 11:14 AM

Putting that crap on money is just as bad. I know if someone ever takes that to the supreme court that the religious right will be staking out the same arguments.

Fortunately between direct deposits, on line bill payments and credit cards I rarely handle that dirty green stuff nowadays.

Strangely enough when I do my on line banking they don't have a little 'in god we trust' statement anywhere on their site. They must be contributing to the decay of america by refusing to put god in people's faces unlike our wise right wing leaders.

Any by your own argument above are you saying that you are contributing to the decay of american society by not attending church?

ZOA NOM · ZOA NOM's Garage

I suppose I am.

SRISER · 03-27-2004, 02:44 PM

The Anti-establishment clause was written to prevent the establishment of the Church of America or Church of the United States. Our founders remembered all too well the affects of The Church of England. It was never meant to separate government from any kind of acknowledgement of a deity. But we cannot get around the fact that this country was established by Judeo-Christians whether we like it or not. Most of our laws are based upon the Ten Commandments...adultery is illegal (shall not covet they neighbors hottie), can't steal, can't kill, can't lie, can't bear false witness...

Even if you are a staunch athiest, these are still good rules to live by. Clear conscience sleeps well at night...

URY914 · URY914's Garage

"No child should be forced to be brow beat into taking part in reciting a pledge to a nation 'under god'."

"To require children in public schools to state oaths that contain even a generic religious reference is wrong."

"Putting that crap on money is just as bad"

350,
No child is "forced". Half the kids in my classes never said it anyways. Why is it so "wrong"? And calling "in God We Trust", "that crap" is out of line.

Your statements prove that you are way out in left field.