Have you seen the Nick Berg beheading video? - Page 4

Moses · 05-13-2004, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GrindingGears
and that's what is scary.

Not really. It's my work. Blood and guts doesn't bother me. Cruelty frightens the hell out of me.

SRISER · 05-13-2004, 11:09 AM

I was trying to make several points. One was to demonstrate their inability to publicly stand up for their beliefs. They can't. They hide behind masks. All of them do it.

Second, they are terrorizing and killing innocent people (Christians, Jews, Westerners) simply because they don't like their color, creed or beliefs.

The difference, rightly pointed out, is that these maniacs are fully supported by the Muslim world. There is a lot of talk about how Islam is a religion of peace...bunk! Not true. They will not stop until all other religions and personal beliefs are under their feet.

In a recent issue of the Wall Street Journal, there was a full page ad showing that Palestinian children are taught that there is no Isreal on the middle east map. The name in place of Isreal is Palestine. I understand that the area used to be called that, but that is not what it is today. So, these kids grow up believing that the Jews are an occupying force in their land...there will be no end to this. Not even the great USA can end this battle.

Terrorism will become part of everyday life...that is until the US is 90% Muslim.

GrindingGears · 05-13-2004, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moses
Not really. It's my work. Blood and guts doesn't bother me. Cruelty frightens the hell out of me.

Whaddya do?

vash · vash's Garage

i hope i never see the video.....

got into a discussion with my girlfriend, this incident almost brought her to tears. if the US decides to "fight fire with fire", and maybe that is the way you need to combat terrorist, things will really get ugly. these folks dont have the financial ability to rage a battle the traditional way. remember when war was a bunch of people standing opposite of each other with muskets? the minutemen change tactics and kicked butt. maybe the US needs to change tactics.

my dream situation is: the UN gets involved, and the US lets them. we back off and join ranks, the UN tells the terrorist, that there is new sheriff in town, and goes after these mothereffers like a policeforce looking for badguys. once badguys are dead or captured, we leave! then our new president, takes a big chunk of the money saved from raging war, creates a bill that gives each and every homeowner govt money to put a solar panel on ALL the homes. spend some more money to develope technolgy to further reduce our dependency on middle east oil. give the new technology to all other develope countries for free. set a date/time where each and everyone one of us can stand in our front yards face the middle east and give them the finger. stand back and watch them become poor as the sand they are standing on.

911ctS · 05-13-2004, 11:19 AM

Sam and Cliff... Right ON

fintstone · fintstone's Garage

Interesting article on the subject:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-05/13/content_1466728.htm

GrindingGears · 05-13-2004, 11:24 AM

YEAH CLIFF YEAH!!

solar power...poor oil barons...middle fingers... i like!!

Pete Pranger · 05-13-2004, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dd74

In another thread in this forum, several posters entered an Islamic website and harangued the site's thoughts and ideals. One poster even said he felt "dirty" after reading it. That's the kind of attitude that has gotten us in such hot water in the Middle East from the beginning. A refusal to understand or learn.

Yep, that was me. I said I felt "dirty" after spending a few hours on that site. I don't know that "dirty" was the correct word, but I certainly didn't feel good about the experience. Maybe you didn't follow the same threads I did, but when I read someone saying that he hates the Jews so much that he denies the events of the holocaust, i get a little queasy. I get a similar feeling when i wander over to the idiots on their "white power" boards. The one impression I got from that islamic site was hatred. Maybe it wasn't the pervasive attitude but it was most certainly present that makes me feel dirty.

I don't dislike Muslims for their faith but I think that they bear some responsibility when events take place in their name. Don't get me wrong, I feel the same way about other groups, for instance the catholic church has an awful lot to answer for when their priests molest children and when a sicko like Koresh rears his ugly head, every christian bears the responsibility to condemn his actions.

Do you see this condemnation in the muslim communities? I don't. Al-Jazeera makes the prison scandal front page news and demands satisfaction and then they bury the horrific murder of a civillian as though it were a traffic accident. So far 3 countries have spoken out; Jordan, Saudi Arabia and UAE. Good. I'm glad to see it, but it's not enough. Every cleric at every mosque should say that they don't stand with these psychos and condemn their actions. Am I being idealistic? Maybe, but if they want me to "understand" them, don't get on a website and proclaim the goodness and mercy of Osama Bim Laden (I read that one too.....).

Am I wrong? Perhaps but thats the way I see the world and I am NOT the cause of what is happening now. Don't blame me for this mess.

Pete

bigrubberjeep · 05-13-2004, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by unfixed
i hope i never see the video.....

got into a discussion with my girlfriend, this incident almost brought her to tears. if the US decides to "fight fire with fire", and maybe that is the way you need to combat terrorist, things will really get ugly. these folks dont have the financial ability to rage a battle the traditional way. remember when war was a bunch of people standing opposite of each other with muskets? the minutemen change tactics and kicked butt. maybe the US needs to change tactics.

my dream situation is: the UN gets involved, and the US lets them. we back off and join ranks, the UN tells the terrorist, that there is new sheriff in town, and goes after these mothereffers like a policeforce looking for badguys. once badguys are dead or captured, we leave! then our new president, takes a big chunk of the money saved from raging war, creates a bill that gives each and every homeowner govt money to put a solar panel on ALL the homes. spend some more money to develope technolgy to further reduce our dependency on middle east oil. give the new technology to all other develope countries for free. set a date/time where each and everyone one of us can stand in our front yards face the middle east and give them the finger. stand back and watch them become poor as the sand they are standing on.

Does that mean I would have to replace my 13MPG motor with an electric?

SRISER · 05-13-2004, 11:37 AM

I have a friend who is in the USAFOSI and learned Farsi, has a masters in terrorism and middle east studies. Conversations with him are scary. The big take away is always that we, the public know very little about how intense the hatred that Muslims have for America, Jews and Christians. America is specifically "evil" because of our "decadent" lifestyles and the fact that we are a Christian nation (chill liberals...its is fact). The big double secret infidel probation for us.

Saudi tends to play with us since we are a big user of their oil (which we found for them, drilled for them and it is our technology that is used to refine it) and they get nice shiny weapons, planes and spare parts from us. UAE is the same. Jordon, same.

bigrubberjeep · 05-13-2004, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SRISER
I have a friend who is in the USAFOSI and learned Farsi, has a masters in terrorism and middle east studies. Conversations with him are scary. The big take away is always that we, the public know very little about how intense the hatred that Muslims have for America, Jews and Christians. America is specifically "evil" because of our "decadent" lifestyles and the fact that we are a Christian nation (chill liberals...its is fact). The big double secret infidel probation for us.

Saudi tends to play with us since we are a big user of their oil (which we found for them, drilled for them and it is our technology that is used to refine it) and they get nice shiny weapons, planes and spare parts from us. UAE is the same. Jordon, same.

So you are saying that they hate us just because of our religion and lifestyle?

They hate us enough to commit suicide?

No actual cause?

My human instinct tells me, someone got hit first. Then the hate began

SRISER · 05-13-2004, 11:52 AM

They are instructed by "Allah" and Muhammed to kill all infidels.

They don't hate us because of our lifestyles, they hate us because they don't have our lifestyle.

Muslims used to be intellectually prolific. Many significant advances came from the Arab world...now all we get is AK47 rounds, beheadings, RPG's and hatred.

They don't view it as suicide...it is martyrdom...that is a huge difference. Such as we were willing to die in WWII for what we believed as well as in the Civil War for example...even if it meant jumping on a landmine or hand grenade. Not suicide, but sacrifice.

There is probably no SPECIFIC cause, no point in time, but a series of events, changes in thought, escalation between our standard of living and theirs, shift from Islamic power to Western power (including Europe).

island911 · 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigrubberjeep
So you are saying that they hate us just because of our religion and lifestyle?

They hate us enough to commit suicide?

No actual cause?

My human instinct tells me, someone got hit first. Then the hate began

Unfortunately for you, your human instinct is wrong.

When a (edit: middle-eastern) nation has a whole bunch of young men with no hope of owning a place of their own, or owning a wife (or wives) of their own. . .or having children of their own. .. .that nation is prime for creating angry suicidal murderers, under the guise of "repsected warrior."

This idea seems to be beyond you for some reason. Likely because you cant see beyond your safe suburban lifestyle.

911SC Pilot · 05-13-2004, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fintstone
Interesting article on the subject:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-05/13/content_1466728.htm

There is speculation going around saying that Berg and this tape was done a week before the prison photos were even released. Im trying to find sources, but thats whats being said.

bigrubberjeep · 05-13-2004, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SRISER
They are instructed by "Allah" and Muhammed to kill all infidels.

Please find this for me somewhere, a link, a book or something.

I have never heard of that being the truth. It's not in their version of the bible or the Koran

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bigrubberjeep · 05-13-2004, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by island911
Unfortunately for you, your human instinct is wrong.

When a nation has a whole bunch of young men with no hope of owning a place of their own, or owning a wife (or wives) of their own. . .or having children of their own. .. .that nation is prime for creating angry suicidal murderers, under the guise of "repsected warrior."

This idea seems to be beyond you for some reason. Likely because you cant see beyond your safe suburban lifestyle.

Actually I do see beyond my suburban lifestyle, this is why I think their is always more to the story then what the media feeds us.

As a matter of fact, some of these men did have wifes and children they left behind with a house that was paid for and few cattle.

So why?

lendaddy · 05-13-2004, 12:27 PM

I admit to lack of context here, but here are a few for ya BRJ

"When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters." (Sura 47:4).

"Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbours, and let them find you rigorous: and know that God is with those who fear him." (Sura 9:124).

"And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful." (Sura 9:5).

The Koran on Holy War: On the One Hand...
There are verses in the Koran favorable to tolerance, like the admirable "Let there be no compulsion in Religion." (Sura 2:257).

Mohammad was told at one point that he had fulfilled his duty by warning: "If they shall dispute with thee, then say: I have surrendered myself to God, as have they who follow me. Say to those who have received the Book, and to the common folk, Do ye surrender yourselves unto God? If they become Muslims, then are they guided aright: but if they turn away -- thy duty is only preaching; and God's eye is on His servants." (Sura 3:18-19).

Initially permission was given the faithful to fight in self-defense: "A sanction is given to those who, because they have suffered outrages, have taken up arms; and verily, God is well able to succour them: Those who have been driven forth from their homes wrongfully, only because they say 'Our Lord is the God.' And if God had not repelled some men by others, cloisters, and churches, and oratories, and mosques, wherein the name of God is ever commemorated, would surely have been destroyed. And him who helpeth God will God surely help: for God is right Strong, Mighty:..." (Sura 22:40-42).

Ultimately military force would become for Mohammad, not means of self-defense only, but the preferred means for propagating his religion throughout the Arabian peninsula, as tradition records: "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: I am commanded to fight with men till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and His Apostle, face our qiblah (direction of prayer), eat what we slaughter, and pray like us. When they do that, their life and property are unlawful for us except what is due to them. They will have the same rights as the Muslims have, and have the same responsibilities as the Muslims have." (Hadith, Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 14, Number 2635: Narrated Anas ibn Malik.) It is in connection with this latter enterprise that verses of quite a different tenor from "Let there be no compulsion in Religion" start to appear, such as...

"And kill them wherever ye shall find them, and eject them from whatever place they have ejected you; for civil discord is worse than carnage: yet attack them not at the sacred Mosque, unless they attack you therein; but if they attack you, slay them. Such the reward of the infidels...Fight therefore against them until there be no more civil discord, and the only worship be that of God: but if they desist, then let there be no hostility, save against the wicked." (Sura 2:187-189).

island911 · 05-13-2004, 12:31 PM

Sorry brj, I thought it would be plenty apparent, even to you, that in the context of suicidal murders, that when I wrote "whole bunch of young men with no hope" I was refering to the al-qaeda soldier, not ours.

Sorry for assuming that you could grasp that. -my bad-

bigrubberjeep · 05-13-2004, 12:36 PM

lendaddy - So the simple fact that we are not Muslim makes us infidels?

If that is so then how can the Muslim religion be recognized as a religion? With your quotes it sounds more like a cult.

(I will do my own research though on your quotes)

Tishabet · 05-13-2004, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigrubberjeep

My human instinct tells me, someone got hit first. Then the hate began

BRJ, if your "human instinct" doesn't account for group hysteria inciting extreme violence, your level of experience in life must be rather limited....in fact, a lot of things about human existence must confuse you.
To use an oft-repeated red herring, why did the nazi's kill millions of jews, homosexuals, communists, mentally retarded, etc? Was it because hitler's mom was raped my a retarded jewish communist homosexual? No. It was because he, and much of the public, hated jews. That's it. There is no more explanation. Sure, some justified it by telling each other that the jews were sacrificing christian babies at passover, but we no that's not true. I'm not asking you to explain nazi hatred of jews to me, so don't try. What I'm trying to get you to see is that nobody got hit first. The hate began of it's own volition. It has happened before, it will happen again, and in the meantime we have guys like you standing on the sidelines demanding an explanation while they try to "reason" through it all. That's a fool's errand, and I don't think I have to point out what that makes you.