This guy needs a beating!

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Superman
Many if not most Western adults would look upon CNN or ABC or CBS or NBC, etc., as somewhere near center, but actually a little RIGHT of center. No kidding. So, what you guys look upon as liberal propaganda is simply a non-right-wing-leaning program.

Unless by "Western adults??" you mean residents of coastal Cali and Oregon, you are so incredibly wrong that I can't believe it. I will gladly produce polls showing that the majority are well aware that the network media casts are left leaning.

Is this like the time you claimed it was common-knowledge that liberals were more intelligent than conservatives?

[928ram]

Anybody understand the impact this has on the perceptions of Americans whose only information sources are AM talk show radio and Fox? It's

Truely pathetic, think about it.

Maybe they filter the airwaves and cable content in those hippy-infested snake-worshipping towns in the shadow of Mt. St. Helens? Say, where is Woodinville exactly?

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by Shaun 84 Targa
I have blue collar friends, good people who work hard all day, but they are not educated and don't discern between real news and a news analysis show, which is what H&C is.

Darn good thing there are educated liberals to help them with this. By golly, those poor simple folk just wouldn't know what to think without them. God forbid they actually get duped into thinking there is merit to the conservative viewpoint; a single right-leaning show could undermine the entire liberal media's efforts with these simpletons. Jeesh; that was close.

[lendaddy]

From a Gallup Poll taken on 10-08-2003

Forty-five percent of Americans believe the news media in this country are too liberal, while only 14% say the news media are too conservative. These perceptions of liberal bias have not changed over the last three years. More generally, a little more than half of Americans have a great deal or fair amount of trust in the news media when it comes to reporting the news fully, accurately, and fairly. Trust in the news media has not changed significantly over the last six years.

[skipdup]

Originally posted by Superman
"I don't normally watch ______" does not have a very different meaning from "I don't watch_______" Neither of these statements come close to "I've never watched_____" The "normally" qualifier is increased information compared to the statement omitting it, but both statements have essentially the same meaning. Pretending that it means "I've never watched______" so you can needle (the kindest word I could place here) Cool_Chick is not mature or respectful. Or convincing.

Supe- The "needling" was due to the fact that off the bat she claimed people we making stuff up or adding and changing her posts. Which, was never the case. They were quotes of her own words. period.

Instead of saying, "oops, I wasn't clear", she has to immediately cry foul and claim people were essentially lying by changing her posts.

Besides, the "normally" qualifier does in fact change the meaning. "I don't watch those shows" CAN absolutely mean "never". I don't normally watch those shows" means she definitely has watched the shows (just not very often). Come on, an intellectual like yourself should be able to understand this. [clinton]Unless it depends on what you definition of intellectual is.[/clinton]

But again, the point of contention, at least for me, was her immediate blame that people were essentially lying by making stuff up, which was not the case. If she never makes that accusation, all of this is a moot point.

Anybody understand the impact this has on the perceptions of Americans whose only information sources are AM talk show radio and Fox? It's deliberate, effective brainwashing. The most you can say about it is that it is effective. Very effective. Heck, even most of you guys think Fox is fair and balanced. Very effective.

Anyone know how many of the liberals get their news from "The Daily Show"? Where's the outcry? Where's the mockery?

- Skip

[Superman]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Unless by "Western adults??" you mean residents of coastal Cali and Oregon, you are so incredibly wrong that I can't believe it. I will gladly produce polls showing that the majority are well aware that the network media casts are left leaning.

Is this like the time you claimed it was common-knowledge that liberals were more intelligent than conservatives?

I claimed that liberals were more educated than conservatives. And I still think that's true, particularly judging by the hilarious conservative argument that educators and new professionals are a bunch of idiots.

By Western Adults I am including the folks in Sweden, Canada, Holland, France....places like that. What you guys call a wild-eyed, military-hating tree-hugger, most of the rest of the world calls a "centrist."

[rcecale]

Originally posted by skipdup
Supe- The "needling" was due to the fact that off the bat she claimed people we making stuff up or adding and changing her posts. Which, was never the case. They were quotes of her own words. period.

Instead of saying, "oops, I wasn't clear", she has to immediately cry foul and claim people were essentially lying by changing her posts.

Cool-chick does one heckuva Black Knight impersonation.

Randy

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Darn good thing there are educated liberals to help them with this. By golly, those poor simple folk just wouldn't know what to think without them. God forbid they actually get duped into thinking there is merit to the conservative viewpoint; a single right-leaning show could undermine the entire liberal media's efforts with these simpletons. Jeesh; that was close.

Jeff, I've got a solid lower-middle class, blue collar upbringing, have kept those ties after going to college and so I think I'm fully qualified to report on who thinks what and why. I don't believe in sacred cows and am not afraid to call a spade a spade, or use any other silly metaphor to illustrate real life. They are who they are and that's that.

The crazy part is that educated conservatives believe Fox, that's the shocker.

what's even stranger is that I ally myself with more 70's conservative views than today's liberal with the exception that education is and always will be the silver bullet. What I can't figure out is how the current set of neocons have got current conservatives thinking like liberals of the past, best example being government intrusion into the home.

what's that all about?

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Shaun 84 Targa

The crazy part is that educated conservatives believe Fox, that's the shocker.

What do you mean? Are you saying they make stuff up or lie? Example please.

I admit they have alot of personalities who are on the right, but they still report the news. Your example of Gonzolez was odd to me considering I watch Fox News and was well aware that it was no "love fest" as you claimed they reported it. How did that happen? Perhaps you saw someone being interviewed and they were giving their perception? Heck I don't know, but you're REALLY off on what you think Fox News is.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by lendaddy
What do you mean? Are you saying they make stuff up or lie? Example please.

I admit they have alot of personalities who are on the right, but they still report the news. Your example of Gonzolez was odd to me considering I watch Fox News and was well aware that it was no "love fest" as you claimed they reported it. How did that happen? Perhaps you saw someone being interviewed and they were giving their perception? Heck I don't know, but you're REALLY off on what you think Fox News is.

Geez, Len, first, I watch Fox a lot. Second, the gonzales thing happened on Fox and not 1 minute later it was on CNN, exactly as I reported it here. It was a very real and verifiable instance. If you chose not to believe me, I can accept that, but until you watch both Fox and CNN equally, I can't help you. I used to respect Brit Humes, but no longer. He's as slanted as Rather.

Edit: to your point, yes, it was an actual news report. it was that round headed guy with glasses, sorry, can't place his name right now.

Please watch Aaron Brown for 1 week. Then compare him to Brit. that's all I ask. Until you do, please hold off on conjecture.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by Shaun 84 Targa
Jeff, I've got a solid lower-middle class, blue collar upbringing, have kept those ties after going to college and so I think I'm fully qualified to report on who thinks what and why. I don't believe in sacred cows and am not afraid to call a spade a spade, or use any other silly metaphor to illustrate real life. They are who they are and that's that.

Me too, Shaun; it sounds like we may have similar backgrounds in this respect. I think I have a pretty good feel for "blue collar middle class" as far as values, beliefs, and and what not. Where I think we may differ is that I give them a lot more credit in their ability to separate the wheat from the chaff; their ability to discern the difference between "serious news" and entertainment. Nowhere is their ability to clearly see the difference between fantasy and reality, fluff and substance, more apparent than in their political shift during my generation. Maybe that is why they are tuning in in record numbers to watch even a very crass conservative completely dress down some left-wing moron. It beats the hell out of the daily dose of liberal dogma presented as news that they so easily see right through. The left consistently underestimates their powers of observation; they see them as short on formal education and therefore maybe not as able to pick up on their nuances of manipulation. I find it funny as hell when the left screams incredulously whenever they feel the right may be attempting to fleece the same "sheep". Problem is, those "sheep" are bright enough to know who to listen too...

[Shaun @ Tru6]

For me Jeff, it has nothing to do with left or right on this issue, but rather 2 things. Yes, I'm typically disappointed with people in general, perhaps a by-product of watching news and seeing firsthand just how "great" our nation is. Being a perfectionist with a work ethic that is downright unhealthy doesn't help either.

Being in marketing/advertising for so long and having developed one of the few fully quantifiable marketing/advertising infrastructures out there, I know that message and its impact on the intended audience has nothing to do with intelligence, sophistication, education, etc. There's so much to write on this one topic alone.

That said, do you really learn critical thinking in high school? No, but a good liberal arts degree can do quite a lot in developing this faculty. Elitist? Maybe, but for a while I couldn't talk with my family or friends from high school because there was a whole new world in front of me and they were not part of it.

I believe in being honest when discussing these things and as a liberal, education drives me, it opens up doors, new ways of thinking that left on your own, you are just not going to develop.

Well, that was more than I wanted to write.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Me too, Shaun; it sounds like we may have similar backgrounds in this respect. I think I have a pretty good feel for "blue collar middle class" as far as values, beliefs, and and what not. Where I think we may differ is that I give them a lot more credit in their ability to separate the wheat from the chaff; their ability to discern the difference between "serious news" and entertainment. Nowhere is their ability to clearly see the difference between fantasy and reality, fluff and substance, more apparent than in their political shift during my generation. Maybe that is why they are tuning in in record numbers to watch even a very crass conservative completely dress down some left-wing moron. It beats the hell out of the daily dose of liberal dogma presented as news that they so easily see right through. The left consistently underestimates their powers of observation; they see them as short on formal education and therefore maybe not as able to pick up on their nuances of manipulation. I find it funny as hell when the left screams incredulously whenever they feel the right may be attempting to fleece the same "sheep". Problem is, those "sheep" are bright enough to know who to listen too...

BTW, I hope some day we can meet over a beer or something. At their core, these really are great discussions.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by Shaun 84 Targa
BTW, I hope some day we can meet over a beer or something. At their core, these really are great discussions.

If you are ever out in Seattle, or if I ever make it out your way, I'll buy the first round.

[CamB]

Super's right - America only considers its media (which covers World events, I might add) as "left-biased" because America is right-biased.

When you take in all of Western Europe, the US and the Antipodes (that's me and Australia), CNN starts to look slightly right of centre. There is a reason the CNN in the US is different to the CNN broadcast in the ROW.

In a total topic drift, I listen to an NZ music only radio station mostly (its actually pretty good). Demographic is 20s and 30s wishing they were still 20s. The morning presenters, on a station with only about 4% of listeners, have a weekly 5-10 minute talk with NZ's leader (Prime Minister) and a weekly 5-10 min talk with the opposition leader. The difference in access between her and GWB is incredible.

Needless to say, with a show run by two musicians, the content of these discussions is hardly scripted. Actually, anything goes as long as it isn't rude.

[Superman]

928, Woodinville is where Drago lives.

Skip, that's bull****. "I don't eat guacamole" and "I have never eated guacamole" have two completely different meanings. You know it and I know it. And the Daily Show is a comedy. H&C is not a comedy. Well, I take that back. H&C is not intended to be a comedy. And yes, she did say, essentially, "oops, I was not clear." Your defense of your attack on Cool_Chick does not pass what I call the "straight face test." Not close. Drop it.

Shaun and Jeff, ditto. Grew up in a logging town in a state between Spokane and Missoula. I guess I'm a bit of a chameleon since I have equal ease at a formal dinner, or a bar where you spit on the floor. (And BTW, I think the Republican Party has done a masterful job of collecting blue collar support and directing their disdain toward the Dems, though I DO NOT believe that the Republican Party's agenda is actually as consistent with blue collar peoples' real preferences and interests as is the Democratic Party.....and that's kinda the whole theme of this thread.....media impact and the gullibility of the television viewer) But anyway, and at the risk of ruining Jeff's reputation, I've met Jeff and you're correct. He seems like a good guy and I'd like to swill beers with you guys, too. I could even promise to keep quiet about politics. If you do. (I'm smiling)

[cowtown]

Originally posted by Superman
I guess I'm a bit of a chameleon since I have equal ease at a formal dinner, or a bar where you spit on the floor.

That's an awesome talent. Are you sure you're not some sort of secret agent or something? Can you samba dance in a manner that would fool the pros?

[CamB]

OK, I watched the whole thing now (I was too lazy and didn't particularly want to listen to the interviewee who, IMHO, needs to think very carefully about his motives in life).

Hannity is rude - not probing, not challenging, not insightful. Just rude. He calls the guy a moron, an idiot, etc --> Colmes actually does it the right way, although he never lets the guy finish a sentence which is a wee bit rude too.

Having said all that, I think the interviewee would be hard pressed to find ANY talk show host who would be agreeing with him...

[skipdup]

Originally posted by Superman
Skip, that's bull****. "I don't eat guacamole" and "I have never eated guacamole" have two completely different meanings. You know it and I know it.

I disagree. If someone asked, I could say "I don't use Dell computers" and that could and would encompass the fact that I have never used a Dell computer. If I had said "I don't use Dell computers anymore", that would have a completely different meaning.

Originally posted by Superman
And yes, she did say, essentially, "oops, I was not clear." Your defense of your attack on Cool_Chick does not pass what I call the "straight face test." Not close. Drop it.

No. You drop it.

She did say "oops", but in the VERY SAME post she said "quit making up stuff". See below for the QUOTE that was NOT changed and NOT added to.

Originally posted by cool_chick
I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. My apologies...I HAVE watched some of these shows, including Hannity, I don't make a habit of it.

Please quit making up stuff now, I would appreciate it. Thank you.

Obviously, I wasn't the only one to read her post to say something different from what she later said she "meant". But, to claim malice, to claim we changed her post is ridiculous. That's what my beef was.

Again, generally, if a person rarely eats guacamole, they will say "I rarely eat guacamole". If they tried it and didn't like it, they would say, "I don't eat the stuff anymore". But if they say "I don't eat guacamole", and if someone confuses what they "meant", they won't immediately accuse them of malice!!!

Seriously, time to hang up your shinning armor and call it a day. If what I did was "attack" her, if that's your new definition, then you're surely guilty of "attacking" people on a daily basis. Come on. You're acting as though I spat on her or something. Get a grip.

Originally posted by Superman
And the Daily Show is a comedy. H&C is not a comedy. Well, I take that back. H&C is not intended to be a comedy.

Wait, I thought your beef was with where & how people got their news. That's what I was commenting on. Quit changing your argument to suit your current need...

This is hilarious.

- Skip

[Superman]

Originally posted by cowtown
That's an awesome talent. Are you sure you're not some sort of secret agent or something? Can you samba dance in a manner that would fool the pros?

Funny. It's really true, though. Ever since I got called that years ago, I've paid attention and sure enough, I can apparently fool a wide variety of groups. Being from N Idaho, I've got what I'm told is a thick northwestern accent....similar to a drawl. Loggers and construction workers think I'm one of them, as long as I'm not wearing my usual work clothes (slacks and tie). Bigshots think I've got class since I know which fork to use and I sit up straight, ask people questions about themselves and listen. Both groups are genuinely surprized when I tell them about my "other" life. I probably should have been a secret agent. My heart rate doesn't change much.

As a secret agent, I'd have to make sure I never got drawn into a Samba dance. Trust me on this one.