I'm fed up with the blaming over NO.

[MichiganMat]

Originally posted by tobster1911
Have though....for many days now. Living in CO, most of the time in the small towns, you learn to depend only on yourself. Your reality above is very bleak, but it can be dealt with. The human body is very strong unless you have forgot. Most people can go for more than a week with no food. Water is the most important followed by shelter from the environment. Concentrate on these things first. I have done several "survival" traning exercises. Go out into the mountains with Nothing but what you have on. Most cases only a few things including a pocket knife I always have. It is possible to life for days like this. I have done it...even in the winter. It is not fun...but you do what you have to. Again I say, If I was put in that position, I would make the best I could of it. Do you propose that instead I give up and EXPECT someone else to fix it for me? As long as I was breathing, I can influence and work to make things better. This is not the typical attitude you hear which is sad.

Unfortunately you represent about .1% of our population. You and I would probably fare ok in NO, but in this situation its not the adults that are dying, it the infants and the old, not to mention anyone who happens need medication (insulin for instance). In the woods there are animals to kill and places to poo when you need to and you don't need to share any of it with anyone. I can't imagine what it must be like for some of the people out there, watching their kids and grandparents die in front of them. Just aweful.

[artplumber]

Originally posted by techweenie
How do you pick up and carry three days or a week worth of supplies, the irreplaceable things from your life, any infirm relatives, children, etc. and then know where to go when there is no plan in place to inform you?

Is this a serious question? How many lost in the desert/wild stories have you heard surviving for a week with a couple of quarts of H20? Remember the guy who cut off his own arm to get out of a rock canyon in Utah?

It's called rationing on the water & food (discipline), and there are very few things that are truly irreplaceable. As to the infirm and children, we used to routinely put 4 adults and 4 children in a VW bug (I sat behind the rear seat w/my cousin). It's all a matter of what you really need. Isn't that what all the SUV's are for?

Edit: Tim has it exactly.
Hope all you guys in CA have your earthquake survival packs in your cars.

[gaijindabe]

Back to the blame thing, from today's New York Times:

The situation might have been considerably less dire if all of Louisiana's and Mississippi's National Guard had been mobilized before the storm so they could organize, enforce and aid in the evacuation of vulnerable low-lying areas. Plans should have been drawn up for doing so, with sufficient trained forces available to carry them out.

[jyl]

It is great for those of us who live in small-town mountain communities, do repeated "survival exercises", go out in the wilderness with just a pocketknife, stockpile weeks of emergency supplies in water-tight containers, are young and strong, etc etc.

Get realistic. How many people are like that? I'm serious, go to a big urban city, go to the poorest areas of town, and survey the average hotel maids, supermarket clerks, busboys, old retirees, and yes, the unemployed mothers too. You know, the people who don't even own a car. Find out how many of them are the sort of well-prepared mountain-man survivalists that you guys are describing. They just aren't, okay? For better or worse, they're caught in the desperate situation that I described, and all this tough talk about how they should just stop *****ing and help themselves is just - honestly, it pisses me off.

If anything, the pleading for help might be getting help to them faster, by drawing attention. Even yesterday Chertoff (Sec'y of Homeland Defense) was angrily insisting in a radio interview that there were not thousands of desperate people at the Convention Center and implying that the reporter was wrong.

[TerryBPP]

So you think that the government wouldn't help as quickly if the Mayor didn't bi_tch and play the race card? I think you need to get real.

[jyl]

Originally posted by artplumber
Is this a serious question? How many lost in the desert/wild stories have you heard surviving for a week with a couple of quarts of H20? Remember the guy who cut off his own arm to get out of a rock canyon in Utah?

It's called rationing on the water & food (discipline), and there are very few things that are truly irreplaceable. As to the infirm and children, we used to routinely put 4 adults and 4 children in a VW bug (I sat behind the rear seat w/my cousin). It's all a matter of what you really need. Isn't that what all the SUV's are for?

Edit: Tim has it exactly.
Hope all you guys in CA have your earthquake survival packs in your cars.

Do you think these folks stranded in New Orleans actually have a working vehicle and non-flooded, non-blocked roads to drive out of town? But for some reason, they've decided to stay in the city?

And, do you think the average urban American could survive in the desert and cut off his or her arm and climb out of a rock canyon? What about the average American baby, little kid, and old and ill person?

I'm sticking by my question - are you in touch with reality here? These aren't well-prepared mountain men survivalists, these are totally average city-dwellers. Think, for instance, your mom or grandparents.

[tobster1911]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050902/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina

"Hell no, I'm not glad to see them. They should have been here days ago. I ain't glad to see 'em. I'll be glad when 100 buses show up," said 46-year-old Michael Levy, whose words were echoed by those around him yelling, "Hell, yeah! Hell yeah!"

"We've been sleeping on the ... ground like rats," Levy said. "I say burn this whole ... city down."

You would think that people were not actually trying to help them at all.

[jyl]

Originally posted by TerryBPP
So you think that the government wouldn't help as quickly if the Mayor didn't bi_tch and play the race card? I think you need to get real.

I think they'd move just as quickly to meet the perceived need, but I think they might not understand what and where the actual need is. I tell you, Chertoff was totally unaware of the Convention Center group. That group's begging for help and the media's converage of it did accomplish something.

Edit: "Brown of FEMA said the agency just learned about the situation at the convention center Thursday and quickly scrambled to provide food, water and medical care and remove the corpses." http://khon.com/khon/displayStory.cfm?storyID=6890


The race card - it's not right to play that. But that mayor, from what I've read, seems like a man on the verge of a nervous and exhaustion breakdown. Hard to sit in our comfy chairs and be so critical of his words. Ditto for a lot of the people who you guys are criticizing for sounding "ungrateful". And, yes, some of them are simply mouthy jerks just like in any population - but I'll bet the great majority aren't.

[skipdup]

Originally posted by jyl
... and non-flooded, non-blocked roads to drive out of town? ...

Then, do tell, how do you propose we should have gotten enough buses into the area to get them out? That'd been a nice trick.

[skipdup]

Originally posted by Tim Hancock
Yeah, I guess "someone" should have forced all the dwellers of NO to move to high ground years ago. Or I guess "someone" should have bought every person in NO their own personal airboat in case disaster strikes. Or I guess "someone" should have stationed 1000 helicopters just outside of any potential storm just in case. Or I guess "someone" should have stationed 100,000 troops w/ food and water to sustain people in 3 states for 1 month just outside of a potential storms reach.
Or I guess "someone" should have the power to snap their fingers and instantly locate every single person in need over a 3 state area and instantly transfer them to 5 star hotel or cruise ship. I think "someone" should also mandate that every person w/in 100 miles of any coast needs a full SCUBA outfit in case mother nature floods their homes.

All of the above was directly overlooked by W (Clinton wanted to do all of the above but the evil republicans denied him)

All of the above needs to be ready to set in motion at the drop of a hat and needs to be set up along the entirety of all US coastlines just in case. Why did W let this storm hit? If he really cared about the people, he would wade thru that city and lead and carry those folks at the Superdome out by foot! All other tens of thousands folks thru out the area (like the people on ventilators in hospitals and such) should have been overlooked entirely until every Superdome refugee was safely and comfortably living in a nice Astrodome somewhere (at least until they trash it). Everyone knows that the poorest people deserve the best care, it is the fair way. (that is what we pay taxes for right?)

Wow, this was easy to make up and spew lefty logic, no wonder they do it so often.

Right on Tim! People have lost it!!!

[jyl]

Originally posted by skipdup
Then, do tell, how do you propose we should have gotten enough buses into the area to get them out? That'd been a nice trick.

I'm not saying thousands of buses should have magically appeared in the city on day one. I'm not criticizing the relief effort here. I'm responding to the people who are saying these stranded people should stop whining and take care of themselves.

[eskimo]

This is pretty intereting prespective of what's going on over there.

This is a blog from a guy, (nerd) trapped in a datacenter in downtown New Orleans.
He along with a very well stocked crew (and armed) are keeping the servers running as long as they can continue to find diesel.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

pictures from the dry side of town

[Rikao4]

Give that guy a match,
if he thinks that will help.
rika

[skipdup]

Originally posted by jyl
I'm not saying thousands of buses should have magically appeared in the city on day one. I'm not criticizing the relief effort here. I'm responding to the people who are saying these stranded people should stop whining and take care of themselves.

OK. My bad.

Regarding your earlier post... It was my understanding that rescuers were helping the critical people first. In many cases, leaving water and MRI for folks that were in a "safe" location, to be picked up later (not just left to die as you suggested). Seems to me many people resent that course of action.

This is the largest natural disaster ever. People will suffer. Everyone can't be rescued immediately. People shouldn't start burning the city down because they weren't rescued on their time table.

- Skip

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by skipdup
This is the largest natural disaster ever. People will suffer. Everyone can't be rescued immediately. People shouldn't start burning the city down because they weren't rescued on their time table.

- Skip

This is exactly my point. At least one person saw it. Jyl can criticize all he want... "because they weren't rescued on their time table." says it all.

[dd74]

How many of you have been to New Orleans? Have you seen the people there? No one on the ground is accusing "...because I'm black..." for the reason they've not been evacuated. They say they have been "Forgotten" as usual. Forgotten because they're poor.

Jesse Jackson is typical of all politico opportunists, particularly as he blames Iraq for taking all the so-called well-trained soldiers who could restore order. Sure, that may have some truth, but is it helpful now to point that out?

The real point is New Orleans is very poor. A third of the residents don't drive and do not have vehicles. The city suffers a lack of political infrastructure. Each time I've been there, I've been appalled by the disorganization, chaos and local resident drunks, homeless and poor wandering around.

The true point is FEMA's budget was slashed - and yes, by Bush. FEMA, however, did train for an emergency within New Orleans, but not of this magnitude. Also, the levies needed repairing. And yes, budgets for that were slashed as well. However, the levies as they were designed could not sustain a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane, so that criticism is a wash.

National Guard. Hell, they didn't do much for L.A. in '92, so how can they be expected to do that much for N.O. in '05? Even with the Nat'l Guard present, L.A. still burned and N.O. is still drowning. Economics are the largest factor. After the Northridge Quake Los Angeles had in '94, our freeways collapsed. But Riordan - our last good mayor, incidentally - had them up and running in 60 days, but with major million dollar incentives to finish the project. N.O. doesn't have those reserves, so it will be a long time before anything gets done.

If there is blame, we should blame ourselves as a country for allowing a third-world-like country such as N.O. to exist. It is both a democratic and republican problem. Problem is, Texas is now going to take a huge hit with refugees. Southeast Louisiana is done for a good year or so. I worry about Texas' ability to absorb those who are crossing in from Louisiana.

[TerryBPP]

I beg to differ dd74, the mayor himself said "do you think they would treat white people this way?". Interpret it how you like.

[artplumber]

Originally posted by jyl
Do you think these folks stranded in New Orleans actually have a working vehicle and non-flooded, non-blocked roads to drive out of town? But for some reason, they've decided to stay in the city?

And, do you think the average urban American could survive in the desert and cut off his or her arm and climb out of a rock canyon? What about the average American baby, little kid, and old and ill person?

I'm sticking by my question - are you in touch with reality here? These aren't well-prepared mountain men survivalists, these are totally average city-dwellers. Think, for instance, your mom or grandparents.

Granted that the guy who cut off his arm was very fit, but he was no survivalist. Also the stories of the people in the wild are plain janes. I remember a mother in Arizona who got stuck with her child out in the boonies, and survived for a week on a couple of sandwiches, dew and drinking all the "water" available (if you know what I mean). All these examples were to show what is possible.

And reality is this, they were told to GET OUT, and that is what Tech & I wrote about. They had plenty of time before the hurricane to depart, and I contend it doesn't take much to get out of Dodge.

If they chose to stay, they should have been well aware of the risks they were running, and what to do about them. After all, they live in a place where hurricanes happen all the time. They live below sea level. They give out hurricane survival guides everywhere. There were 4 storms in Florida last year (their essentially next door neighbors) that took a huge toll of money and some lives. It doesn't take much to get out (and who would wait until the last 24 or 48 hrs to get out) when the storm is a huge one. This is poor planning on the behalf of those who could have gotten away and stayed, as well as those who stayed for whatever they called their "reason".

As to the sick and infirm, I can tell you it is absolutely idiotic for the decision-makers for the infirm to think that the situation in which they now find themselves is better than any upset/risk that the infirm would have suffered by moving them out of the path. The only infirm that should have stayed should have been those in the hospitals. And if you don't think I know anything about the reality of the infirm, I was in the hospital taking patients down the stairs on stretchers and hand bagging those on ventilators during the Northridge aftermath.

[dd74]

Originally posted by TerryBPP
I beg to differ dd74, the mayor himself said "do you think they would treat white people this way?". Interpret it how you like.

I really don't need to interpret anything, Terry, except that it's a growing pandemic in this country that the poor are being slighted.

Besides which, it seems Nagin is as out of touch toward New Orleans' own census. There were whites in the crowd of mostly black refugees.

[TerryBPP]

Originally posted by dd74
I really don't need to interpret anything, Terry, except that it's a growing pandemic in this country that the poor are being slighted.

Besides which, it seems Nagin is as out of touch toward New Orleans' own census. There were whites in the crowd of mostly black refugees.

Then he should have said "do you think they would treat rich people this way?"

Lets not forget that I'm not saying we shouldn't help. I just think the finger pointing is counter productive.