Red Cross Apparently Barred from Superdome by LA gvmt!

[cool_chick]

Originally posted by 928ram
See, there's part of it right there. Someone else had linked to an even more detailed doc that assigned public works employees to staff and drive the busses out of the city in a mass evacuation.

Where in the hell does it say this:

Show me where in the plan was the evacuation which lies physically on the mayor, the actual plan where they're supposed to drive down the street and take them out of the 1 1/2 hour on the highway bowl. Show me. Show me where in the plan they were supposed to be taken. Show me where in the plan what they were supposed to provide food/water in the mannaland hours away. Show me where in the plan that this is supposed to be done in 36 hours max. SHOW ME this part of the plan?


It says this:

* Supply transportation as needed in accordance with the current Standard Operating Procedures.

* Place special vehicles on alert to be utilized if needed.

* Position supervisors and dispatch evacuation buses.

* If warranted by scope of evacuation, implement additional service.


The mayor has already stated he used those buses to get people to the superdome.




It does NOT say this:

Show me where in the plan was the evacuation which lies physically on the mayor, the actual plan where they're supposed to drive down the street and take them out of the 1 1/2 hour on the highway bowl. Show me. Show me where in the plan they were supposed to be taken. Show me where in the plan what they were supposed to provide for with food/water in this mannaland hours away. Show me where in the plan that this is supposed to be done in 36 hours max.

[cool_chick]

Originally posted by dhoward
"show me some ass.."

Yeah I do see some ass here alright...and their vast expertise knowledge, and inside information into the interworkings of all that happened in this horrific tragedy, so skilled and knowledgable in fact that they've figured it all out with definitive conclusion, when even Bush, Congress and all involved don't even know all the freaking details.

Internet tidbit "inside knowledge"....better give Bush and Congress your unsubstantiated conclusions, I'm sure they'll be grateful for your well-rounded analysis.

[island911]

Originally posted by cool_chick
Show me . . ..Show me. Show me . .. Show me . .. SHOW ME
. ..

I think you need a cardboard sign.



. . or you could move across the state line into Missouri.

[928ram]

show up late to the party and complain that the keg's dry, same ol CC troll. Figure it out.

[emcon5]

Did you even bother to read the plan?

Originally posted by cool_chick

It does NOT say this:

Show me where in the plan was the evacuation which lies physically on the mayor, the actual plan where they're supposed to drive down the street and take them out of the 1 1/2 hour on the highway bowl. Show me. Show me where in the plan they were supposed to be taken. Show me where in the plan what they were supposed to provide for with food/water in this mannaland hours away. Show me where in the plan that this is supposed to be done in 36 hours max.

Your request is all over the place, If you are asking does it say Fred Jenkins will drive Orleans Parish School Bus Number 22 down Elm Street and pick up the Smith family, no, you are correct it doesn't say that, at least not in the general plan they have on the city web page.

Taking this one at a time, I will do my best to spoon feed you this, as you seem to be incapable of clicking a link and reading it yourself. Text in italics is quoted from the "City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan, ANNEX I: HURRICANES"

Show me where in the plan was the evacuation which lies physically on the mayor,

Under V. TASKS, A. Mayor, * Initiate the evacuation. (Initiate means "to cause or facilitate the beginning of")

It is also listed under III. EVACUATION ORDER, B. Issuance of Evacuation Orders: "The person responsible for recognition of hurricane related preparation needs and for the issuance of an evacuation order is the Mayor of the City of New Orleans."

the actual plan where they're supposed to drive down the street and take them out of the 1 1/2 hour on the highway bowl.

According to the general plan, under "PART 2: EVACUATION, I. GENERAL:

Due to the geography of New Orleans and the varying scales of potential disasters and their resulting emergency evacuations, different plans are in place for small-scale evacuations and for citywide relocations of whole populations.

Show me. Show me where in the plan they were supposed to be taken.

PART 3: SHELTERING

(See ESF-6, Mass Care)

Emergency shelter operations are the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Preparedness Shelter Coordinator. Shelters are provided by the Orleans Parish School Board, while manager training and support activities and supplies are provided by the Office of Emergency Preparedness.

Reassessment of facilities is an on-going process conducted jointly by the School Board, and Emergency Preparedness Division. The shelter activation list is updated yearly, and takes into consideration new school construction, school closings and renovations.

A. Shelter Demand

Shelter demand is currently under review by the Shelter Coordinator. Approximately 100,000 Citizens of New Orleans do not have means of personal transportation. Shelter assessment is an ongoing project of the Office of Emergency Preparedness through the Shelter Coordinator.

The following schools have been inspected and approved as Hurricane Evacuation Shelters for the City of New Orleans: Laurel Elementary School

Walter S. Cohen High School

Medard Nelson Elementary School

Sarah T. Reed High School

Southern University Multi Purpose Center

Southern University New Science Building

O. Perry Walker High School

Albert Wicker Elementary School

It should not be assumed that all of the approved shelters listed above will be opened in the event of a hurricane or other major tropical storm. The names and locations of open shelters will be announced when an evacuation order is issued.

Show me where in the plan that this is supposed to be done in 36 hours max.

WTF is this Mannaland you keep blathering about?

Under "PART 2: EVACUATION II. CONCEPT OF OPERATIONS"

It includes identifying the transportation network, especially the carrying-capacity of proposed evacuation routes and existing or potential traffic bottlenecks or blockages, caused either by traffic congestion or natural occurrences such as rising waters. Identification of sheltering resources and the establishment of shelters and the training of shelter staff is important, as is the provision for food and other necessities to the sheltered. This preparation function is the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Preparedness.

Show me where in the plan that this is supposed to be done in 36 hours max.

It doesn't, you pulled the 36 hour thing from the depths of your large intestine, as far as I can tell.

Under "PART 2: EVACUATION, IV: HURRICANE EVACUATION PROCEDURES, A. Evacuation Time Requirements

Using information developed as part of the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Task Force and other research, the City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours. This is based on clearance time or is the time required to clear all vehicles evacuating in response to a hurricane situation from area roadways. Clearance time begins when the first evacuating vehicle enters the road network and ends when the last evacuating vehicle reaches its destination.

Clearance time also includes the time required by evacuees to secure their homes and prepare to leave (mobilization time); the time spent by evacuees traveling along the road network (travel time); and the time spent by evacuees waiting along the road network due to traffic congestion (delay time). Clearance time does not refer to the time a single vehicle spends traveling on the road network. Evacuation notices or orders will be issued during three stages prior to gale force winds making landfall.

> Precautionary Evacuation Notice: 72 hours or less

> Special Needs Evacuation Order: 8-12 hours after Precautionary Evacuation Notice issued

> General Evacuation Notice: 48 hours or less


As an FYI, the Superdome isn't in the plan either.

Tom

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by cool_chick
You crack me up. You don't think things through, do you? You pull just one teeny part of the "plan." Sure he could pick them up, but then what?

Answer it ALL or don't bother. Here, I'll paste it again:

Read my post:

I know it's not logical to be able to evacuate a city of that size to mannaland....the "bowl" extends (when superimposed on a map of my area) I could drive 1 hour north on good highway traffic and 1/2 hour south on good highway traffic and I'd still be in the flood zone. Then, I'd have to take these people out of the path of the tropical storm that ensues once it hits landfall since I don't think it would be safe to be in that in the middle of a cornfield. I will also need to get food/water/tents, bathrooms to mannaland. All in 36 hours.

And I'll continue

Now I'm the mayor. In 36 hours I have to drive down the streets, get people, drive them very far (see above) then come back, do it all over again, approximately 100,000 people without vehicles.

Sorry, I think that is totally unrealistic in 36 hours.

And sidenote, the mayor stated he used those "smoking gun buses silliness" to bus people to the Superdome. Whether or not this is true remains to be seen, but I'm sure you know the answer based on your little internet tidbit "inside knowledge" right?

Boy when you get worked up it all comes out!

My complaint is that almost NOTHING was done. Trained bus drivers? BS, get some good truck drivers and thats good enough to fill the puppy up and head North.

Even if you made only one trip that would have gotten a good 30% of the people out. There were actually more than 300 bus's around the city, I was just being conservative. They could have driven people to Baton Rouge (1 hour 20 minutes) or Layfette (2 hours 15 minutes) and out of harms way. Both cities are about 100 feet above sea level and were not hit anywhere near as hard by the storm as New Orleans was.

Make two trips and ferry 60,000 people. That would have made a world of difference.

I could care less about giving the mayor trouble. The governor sure stepped in the brown material but it all will come out in the end.

Settle down...

JoeA

[aways]

Now, now, let's all settle down and take a deep breath... Too much arguing over 36 hrs vs 72 hrs, and who knew what, when, etc. Let's just summarize what we ALL can agree on, regardless of whatever political biases we bring to the table. Once we have a few basic postulates in place, we can debate the nuances. What we know thus far:
(1) The NO Mayor is an incompetent moron.
(2) The Louisiana governor is an incompetent moron
(3) Bush was late to realize (1) and (2).

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by aways
Now, now, let's all settle down and take a deep breath... Too much arguing over 36 hrs vs 72 hrs, and who knew what, when, etc. Let's just summarize what we ALL can agree on, regardless of whatever political biases we bring to the table. Once we have a few basic postulates in place, we can debate the nuances. What we know thus far:
(1) The NO Mayor is an incompetent moron.
(2) The Louisiana governor is an incompetent moron
(3) Bush was late to realize (1) and (2).

Aways, please do not post this! CC wants to think that I am an idiot and feels that I am blaming #1 and #2 far too much.

We all know that its Bush's fault anyway!

joeA

PS You are right but do not want to post it and get into futher trouble...

Originally posted by aways
Now, now, let's all settle down and take a deep breath... Too much arguing over 36 hrs vs 72 hrs, and who knew what, when, etc. Let's just summarize what we ALL can agree on, regardless of whatever political biases we bring to the table. Once we have a few basic postulates in place, we can debate the nuances. What we know thus far:
(1) The NO Mayor is an incompetent moron.
(2) The Louisiana governor is an incompetent moron
(3) Bush was late to realize (1) and (2).

(4) Cool chick is all lathered up!

Does that turn anyone else on?

[cool_chick]

Emcom, 1. Where did I get this "36 hour" stuff? Why don't you try going back and reading all I wrote first, before you jump in and try to "prove" something else based on my original comments that it's a pipedream to be able to evacuate this entire city on such short notice. Go ahead, I dare you. Give it a try.

Secondly, the mayor stated that the Superdome was the only place that was rated to withstand SUCH A STRONG HURRICANE. While these schools are rated for a hurricane:

Walter S. Cohen High School

Medard Nelson Elementary School

Sarah T. Reed High School

Southern University Multi Purpose Center

Southern University New Science Building

O. Perry Walker High School

Albert Wicker Elementary School

We don't know if they're rated for a CAT 5 hurricane!

Again, we don't know all the facts, and won't know what's negligence and what's inability UNTIL ALL THE FACTS ARE GATHERED and the investigation is complete. Until then, all this garbage about fingerpointing is just layman armchair unexperienced, uninvolved speculation!

[cool_chick]

Originally posted by aways
Now, now, let's all settle down and take a deep breath... Too much arguing over 36 hrs vs 72 hrs, and who knew what, when, etc. Let's just summarize what we ALL can agree on, regardless of whatever political biases we bring to the table. Once we have a few basic postulates in place, we can debate the nuances. What we know thus far:
(1) The NO Mayor is an incompetent moron.
(2) The Louisiana governor is an incompetent moron
(3) Bush was late to realize (1) and (2).

The mayor: they should've done everything in the world, right? This hurricane cropped up very fast and strong in a very, very short period of time. So I don't know what is reasonable and what is not given the short period of time and what resources he had available. I know it's not logical to be able to evacuate a city of that size to mannaland....the "bowl" extends (when superimposed on a map of my area) I could drive 1 hour north on good highway traffic and 1/2 hour south on good highway traffic and I'd still be in the flood zone. Especially given the short time he had. Most hurricanes, locals have the luxury of much time as they watch the hurricane at hurricane force hit the islands, etc. This thing formed basically off the coast of the U.S., and within 2 days was hitting Florida as a tropical storm. He claimed the superdome was the only place in the city to withstand a hurricane of this force and the buses were used to get people to the superdome.

Whether this is true or not, or if there was something else he should've done (negligence) or couldn't have done (inability), we just won't know until the investigation is complete. I reserve judgment on his "failures" at this time. I don't even know what was a negligence and what was an inability as of this time. Even Bush and congress don't know yet.


The governor: I don't buy this crap that the feds couldn't do anything without her "signing something" or "calling" or etc.


It's all speculation at this point. When I read uninvolved "armchair experts" who drone on about the locals, it's no better than blaming the feds in this manner:

FEMA didn't call so and so and Bush didn't talk to so and so and Bush has to tell FEMA to do this and that otherwise FEMA can't do this or that, and Bush should've told the mayor this, and FEMA should've asked the Governor that, and FEMA had a boat sitting there why wasn't it docked off N.O., and Bush had airplanes, why didn't he move them, etc.



And I love how you aren't going on and on about the feds and their 4 day inaction. Why is that?

[Instrument 41]

Sorry guys, you don't see what we do, the mayor has been stripped of all his power. He is not a moron, he has been the motovating force to get anything done down here. Has he made enemies..oh yeah, but he has been whats behind all of what you see going on.

[cool_chick]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
Boy when you get worked up it all comes out!

My complaint is that almost NOTHING was done. Trained bus drivers? BS, get some good truck drivers and thats good enough to fill the puppy up and head North.

Even if you made only one trip that would have gotten a good 30% of the people out. There were actually more than 300 bus's around the city, I was just being conservative. They could have driven people to Baton Rouge (1 hour 20 minutes) or Layfette (2 hours 15 minutes) and out of harms way. Both cities are about 100 feet above sea level and were not hit anywhere near as hard by the storm as New Orleans was.

Make two trips and ferry 60,000 people. That would have made a world of difference.

I could care less about giving the mayor trouble. The governor sure stepped in the brown material but it all will come out in the end.

Settle down...

JoeA

Baton Rouge and Lafayette also got the tropical storm. So where in these place to put 60,000 people? You can't just leave them outside. THINK!!!!!!!!

Two trips is all it takes huh? That sounds easy. After you declare the mandatory evacuation, then you can drive up and down the street all day Sunday, set up mannaland in Baton Rouge AND Lafayette, get 60,000 people from their homes, dirve up and down until you have 60,000 people, sure. YOu can do that, sure!

Oh crap, where's mary the driver? Oh *****, she took her family and fled. What about Joe? Oh *****, he got grandma and left.


Your "complaint" may be justified, it may not be justified, what this mayor did may be negligent, may be inability given the speed in which ths hurricane cropped up or other factors YOU or I DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT yet.

I do know the superdome was the place the mayor took people in the past. So to me, this appears to be maybe this was the federally approved PLAN. But who KNOWS? You don't, I don't, every single lick of this is speculation, the president and congress are calling for an investigation.....THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW....


Bottom line, as I originally stated, and any intelligent, prudent person would agree, UNTIL ALL THE FACTS are ON THE TABLE, it's STUPID to speculate and declare you know who did what wrong based on some stupid internet tidbits.

I am "calm" but I feel like I've stepped in the twilight zone. What the hell has happened to reasonable, analytical, realistic people?

[cool_chick]

Originally posted by 928ram
show up late to the party and complain that the keg's dry, same ol CC troll. Figure it out.

Awww, did I hurt poor little ol' 928ram's feelings?

HAHAHAHA

Get his feelings hurt, gotta get that evil girl back...I'll call her a troll...that's it...yeah, she's a troll...I'll say that...yeah...

na na na na na na na na cool_chick...na na na na na

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by cool_chick
Baton Rouge and Lafayette also got the tropical storm. So where in these place to put 60,000 people? You can't just leave them outside. THINK!!!!!!!!

Your "complaint" may be justified, it may not be justified, what this mayor did may be negligent, may be inability given the speed in which ths hurricane cropped up or other factors YOU or I DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT yet.

I do know the superdome was the place the mayor took people in the past. So to me, this appears to be maybe this was the federally approved PLAN. Who KNOWS? YOu don't, I don't, the president and congress are calling for an investigation.....


Bottom line, as I originally stated, and any intelligent, prudent person would agree, UNTIL ALL THE FACTS are ON THE TABLE, it's STUPID to speculate and declare you know who did what wrong based on some stupid internet tidbits.

I am "calm" but I feel like I've stepped in the twilight zone. What the hell has happened to reasonable, analytical, realistic people?

Slow down a bit...

Baton Rouge and Lafayette both got hit by the storm but not anywhere near as hard as NO. They both are above sea level (quite a bit) and thus not going to flood.

I agree with most of what you say above but getting as many people out of the city still would have helped. Anything to help relieve the superdome would have been a change for the better.

Yes, the feds stepped on their johnson with the delay but they are not the only ones who messed up this situation. Most all of us realize this.

I am calm and reasonable most of the time. Now I am going to go and have a cocktail and be more reasonable...

JoeA

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by cool_chick
Awww, did I hurt poor little ol' 928ram's feelings?

HAHAHAHA

Get his feelings hurt, gotta get that evil girl back...I'll call her a troll...that's it...yeah, she's a troll...I'll say that...yeah...

na na na na na na na na cool_chick...na na na na na

Wondered if you were going to see this and if so how bad the reply would be...

928, she is just as tough in person, maybe more. Still a keeper. You ought to come to Mardi Gras and this discussion could be continued in person!

JoeA

[aways]

Originally posted by cool_chick

And I love how you aren't going on and on about the feds and their 4 day inaction. Why is that?

CC-

And I love how you are pretending to be objective and non-judgemental at this stage of the situation, when it apears to me that you've appointed youresef legal council for the Mayor and Governor -- giving them the benifit of the doubt, but not seeming to do the same for the Feds. The state and local officials have the primary responsibility for disaster management. They were clearly in way over their heads on this one. What Bush didn't realize right away (although one can argue that he should have) is just how completely imcompetent they were. Of course, at some point we all get the public servants that we deserve. NO residents had better remember that next time they elect a Mayor and/or governor.

[cool_chick]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
Wondered if you were going to see this and if so how bad the reply would be...

928, she is just as tough in person, maybe more. Still a keeper...

JoeA

I'm so damn fired up that people think they know everything. Hell none of us were in any of those offices, Bush doesn't know, Congress doesn't know, but some laypeople on the internet with their little internet websites know it all?

C'mon Joe. All I ask is for you guys to reserve judgment until the investigation is complete. There very well may be some logical answers that you didn't think about yet that make sense.

WE DON'T KNOW, how could we? How could we know that person X didn't call person Y or that person L didn't do this, maybe person L did, maybe person L did something else that's according to the plan. We just don't know, we weren't around.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by cool_chick
I'm so damn fired up that people think they know everything. Hell none of us were in any of those offices, Bush doesn't know, Congress doesn't know, but some laypeople on the internet with their little internet websites know it all?

C'mon Joe. All I ask is for you guys to reserve judgment until the investigation is complete. There very well may be some logical answers that you didn't think about yet that make sense.

WE DON'T KNOW, how could we? How could we know that person X didn't call person Y or that person L didn't do this, maybe person L did, maybe person L did something else that's according to the plan. We just don't know, we weren't around.

I know you are on a roll. Tried to call just a minute ago and as usual your frigging cell phone did not answer so you are plugged into the computer and ignoring everything around you!

Totally agree with the above and no one knows everything. We need to wait and see how this plays out. Believe that most everyone will have egg on their faces but what pisses me off the most is that no one usually learns from it and it happens again in 20-40 years!

JoeA

[cool_chick]

Originally posted by aways
CC-

And I love how you are pretending to be objective and non-judgemental at this stage of the situation, when it apears to me that you've appointed youresef legal council for the Mayor and Governor -- giving them the benifit of the doubt, but not seeming to do the same for the Feds. The state and local officials have the primary responsibility for disaster management. They were clearly in way over their heads on this one. What Bush didn't realize right away (although one can argue that he should have) is just how completely imcompetent they were. Of course, at some point we all get the public servants that we deserve. NO residents had better remember that next time they elect a Mayor and/or governor.

See, you are reading my mind. Guess what, YOU SUCK AT READING MINDS.

TRY, just TRY to read my posts, which of course include the FEDS.

I called you out as to your blatent disregard for one aspect of this horrible tragedy but lynching of others because of this:

(1) The NO Mayor is an incompetent moron.
(2) The Louisiana governor is an incompetent moron
(3) Bush was late to realize (1) and (2).

I gather you think the mayor and governor are incompetent, but the feds are perfect in this tragedy, right? So I just had to ask you, why did you even leave out the feds? Tell me, why? WHY? Is it because you think they were perfect this whole time? HUH?

You do. You think the feds were perfect in their response, right?


Of course it doesn't matter what you think, you still are just a layman armchair person with zero involvement in any of this and zero knowledge, insider information. As such, your opinion should be recognized as that, unsubstantiated and devoid of all the facts.