Appeasement 101

[aap1966]

Bin Laden, without the filters
By Francis Harris in Washington
November 18, 2005

Rise of the anti-Osama
"Osama bin Laden wants the United States to convert to Islam, ditch its constitution, abolish banks, jail homosexuals, bar women from appearing in the press and sign the Kyoto climate change treaty.

The first complete collection of the Saudi's statements, published on Thursday by Verso, portrays a world in which Islam's enemies will take the first steps towards salvation by embracing the "religion of all the prophets".

Messages to the World: The Statements of Osama bin Laden is billed as the first accurate compendium of the terrorist leader's words, threats and ruminations from 1994 to 2004.

Its editors have rooted out many statements which they identified as forgeries and retranslated to correct "horrendous" errors.

Bin Laden's terms for America's surrender appeared after the September 2001 suicide attacks.

Alcoholic drink and gambling would be barred and there would be an end to women's photos in newspapers or advertising.

Any woman serving "passengers, visitors and strangers" would also be out of a job.

The West must "stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you" and has become the "worst civilisation witnessed in the history of mankind".

Verso said it expected criticism for publishing the thoughts of a terrorist, but "the idea is to have an annotated, scholarly collection of bin Laden's words", Gavin Browning from Verso said.

"Until now, his words have only been available in poor translations or soundbites."

Mr Browning emphasised that publishing bin Laden's views did not imply approval of them by the publishers.

The book's introduction is written by Professor Bruce Lawrence, who teaches Islamic studies at Duke University, in North Carolina, and describes the terrorist as "one of the best prose writers in Arabic". Many past translations of the words of the head of al-Qaeda had been "horrendous" and often wrong, he said.

In the book the terrorist responsible for killing 3000 civilians in September 2001 says that killing the innocent is wrong. In bin Laden's world a global conflict is under way between the umma, or Muslim community, and unbelievers.

Telegraph, London (As reported in Sydney Morning Herald)"


See, just a few simple changes on our part and they'll leave us alone.

[kach22i]

You forgot the appeasement the Bush gang already gave Bin laden's supporters (in the Saudi government) - closing of the King Riad air base in Saudi Arabia.

Bin Ladden wanted the USA off the Arabian Peninsula, and the current administration gave in - it’s that simple.

[Seeeu911]

I spent most of a year on that base, it needed to be closed. little strategic value with the now completed hidden bases, and the air base base at Dahran is the hq for saudi front line F15 and Tornados now.
It was a huge money pit of US tax dollars IMO.

[Jeff Higgins]

Yet another half-baked, ill-informed liberal viewpoint with no basis in fact whatsoever, and twisted into an anti-Bush stab to boot, goes down in flames at the hands of some one with actual first hand, real world experience. Same pattern repeats itself again and again.

How can anyone take something as valuable as this kind of insight and use it to bash Bush? Here we have an opportunity to get a glimpse into the mind of the most murderous terrorist of our day, and all you see is yet another chance to attack Bush? It would behoove us to understand what drives this man. Bush has nothing to do with it. Bin Laden's views are not likely to change regardless of who is in power here. You are letting your simplistic, child like devotion to the "Bush must be responsible for everything that is wrong in the world" campaign interfere with your understanding of what insight has been laid before us.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Seeeu911
now completed hidden bases, and the air base base at Dahran is the hq for saudi front line F15 and Tornados now.

1. What are these "hidden bases" you speak of?

2. I could give a rats arse where the Saudi HQ for F-15's is - that's off the topic.

3. Does the USA have a air base in the Arabian Peninsula or not?

4. Jeff Higgins, I'm only interested in the facts. You have not provided any facts - in the words of Barabra Bush: I'm through with you.

[einreb]

Originally posted by kach22i
3. Does the USA have a air base in the Arabian Peninsula or not?

I think the US pretty much turned Qatar into a military base, no?

[Jeff Higgins]

Facts about what? This thread was started to let us know that some one has compiled a variety of Bin Laden's statements in a clear, concise manner that we can understand. I find that very interesting and valuable. You found an opportunity to bash Bush. That adds no interest or value to the conversation whatsoever. Before we stray too far off this thread's original intent and start counting air bases in the Middle East, why don't we examine what Bin Laden has to say? I know it's hard, and I now it's a lot more fun to distort this into yet another evil/incompetent Dubya thing, but you can do it. Try really hard now...

[Shaun @ Tru6]

There's only one reason to bash bush in terms of OBL.

bush stood on the rubble of the WTC, 3000 dead Americans behind him, and ironically, the entire world behind him and said that he would hunt those responsible down and bring them to justice.

OBL is still alive, free and bush doesn't really think about him much, isn't really focusing on him at all any more.

So, all you neocon bush apologists, I'll ask you this question: someone breaks into your house and kills your wife. The police put up wanted posters and say they are looking for the killer. The killer isn't found, and after a while the police tell you they aren't really focusing on catching the killer, they are more concerned with kwik-e-mart burglaries.

What's your response to the chief of police?

From a White House Press Briefing in 2002
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Q Mr. President, in your speeches now you rarely talk or mention Osama bin Laden. Why is that? Also, can you tell the American people if you have any more information, if you know if he is dead or alive? Final part -- deep in your heart, don't you truly believe that until you find out if he is dead or alive, you won't really eliminate the threat of --

THE PRESIDENT: Deep in my heart I know the man is on the run, if he's alive at all. Who knows if he's hiding in some cave or not; we haven't heard from him in a long time. And the idea of focusing on one person is -- really indicates to me people don't understand the scope of the mission.

Terror is bigger than one person. And he's just -- he's a person who's now been marginalized. His network, his host government has been destroyed. He's the ultimate parasite who found weakness, exploited it, and met his match. He is -- as I mentioned in my speech, I do mention the fact that this is a fellow who is willing to commit youngsters to their death and he, himself, tries to hide -- if, in fact, he's hiding at all.

So I don't know where he is. You know, I just don't spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you. I'm more worried about making sure that our soldiers are well-supplied; that the strategy is clear; that the coalition is strong; that when we find enemy bunched up like we did in Shahikot Mountains, that the military has all the support it needs to go in and do the job, which they did.

And there will be other battles in Afghanistan. There's going to be other struggles like Shahikot, and I'm just as confident about the outcome of those future battles as I was about Shahikot, where our soldiers are performing brilliantly. We're tough, we're strong, they're well-equipped. We have a good strategy. We are showing the world we know how to fight a guerrilla war with conventional means.

Q But don't you believe that the threat that bin Laden posed won't truly be eliminated until he is found either dead or alive?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban.

But once we set out the policy and started executing the plan, he became -- we shoved him out more and more on the margins. He has no place to train his al Qaeda killers anymore. And if we -- excuse me for a minute -- and if we find a training camp, we'll take care of it. Either we will or our friends will. That's one of the things -- part of the new phase that's becoming apparent to the American people is that we're working closely with other governments to deny sanctuary, or training, or a place to hide, or a place to raise money.

And we've got more work to do. See, that's the thing the American people have got to understand, that we've only been at this six months. This is going to be a long struggle. I keep saying that; I don't know whether you all believe me or not. But time will show you that it's going to take a long time to achieve this objective. And I can assure you, I am not going to blink. And I'm not going to get tired. Because I know what is at stake. And history has called us to action, and I am going to seize this moment for the good of the world, for peace in the world and for freedom.

[Rick Lee]

"So, all you neocon bush apologists, I'll ask you this question: someone breaks into your house and kills your wife. The police put up wanted posters and say they are looking for the killer. The killer isn't found, and after a while the police tell you they aren't really focusing on catching the killer, they are more concerned with kwik-e-mart burglaries.

What's your response to the chief of police?"

My response would, of course, be to go after the mastermind of the break-in. But it's far more important to disable his network of criminals which actually do the dirty work. That can render the mastermind impotent. Catching the mastermind would only be a symbolic victory and a total hollow one at that, if his cells and finances around the world remain untouched.

[techweenie]

Bad analogy. OBL is a hero and spiritual leader to hundreds of millions, not a petty 'criminal mastermind.'

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Rick, I disagree. common criminals willing to follow a religious-inspired mastermind to their death are a dime a dozen... terrorists are growing in number. Without a mastermind like OBL to tell them to go to their death, they are only "knocking off kwik-e-marts," not breaking into homes and killing wives.

Kill the mastermind, and criminals have no direction. And masterminds on the scale of OBL are rare, very rare. It would be difficult for someone to take his place. And before you say Al Zarquawi, he wouldn't be what he is without OBL, case point proven.

In fact, there probably wouldn't be a real insurgency in Iraq if OBL were dead. No leadership, no funding, no organization.

[Rick Lee]

Plenty of terrorist cells are still around with marching orders that are years old and they're just biding their time. Taking out UBL won't stop those cells. UBL's hiding in a cave doesn't threaten any of us, other than the possibility that his recorded audio and video rants could send signals to his cells. His foot soldiers in Iraq, Europe and yes, hiding here, do threaten us. They are a clear and present danger. If UBL were taken out tomorrow, complacency would set in with Americans (well, at least more than already has) and then we'd be even more shocked when the next attack came.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
Plenty of terrorist cells are still around with marching orders that are years old and they're just biding their time. Taking out UBL won't stop those cells. UBL's hiding in a cave doesn't threaten any of us, other than the possibility that his recorded audio and video rants could send signals to his cells. His foot soldiers in Iraq, Europe and yes, hiding here, do threaten us. They are a clear and present danger. If UBL were taken out tomorrow, complacency would set in with Americans (well, at least more than already has) and then we'd be even more shocked when the next attack came.

Well, again I disagree, terror cells without direction lose faith, purpose, resolve. It's normal human behavior. to say otherwise makes these guys supermen.

But that's only one point. the man who masterminded the killing of 3000 American's, no matter where he is in the world, is free.

I want him dead, his head on a pike on the Capitol.

To expect anything less is sick in my opinion.

[island911]

Originally posted by techweenie
Bad analogy. OBL is a hero and spiritual leader to hundreds of millions, not a petty 'criminal mastermind.'

It's interesting, the part of Shauns bad analogy that you feel the need to correct.

Pretty damn sad, really. Here you are spinning up oBL's status (likely) because you preceive GW as needing to be taken down.

Just one more example of: "thy enemy's enemy is thy friend"


Okay, tech . . now tell us that Saddam would have never helped alqeda.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Shaun 84 Targa
Well, again I disagree, terror cells without direction lose faith, purpose, resolve. It's normal human behavior. to say otherwise makes these guys supermen.

But that's only one point. the man who masterminded the killing of 3000 American's, no matter where he is in the world, is free.

I want him dead, his head on a pike on the Capitol.

To expect anything less is sick in my opinion.

Perhaps keeping him alive and neutered is what has kept his minions from attacking us? Perhapswee have killed him and prefer his followers not know it? Bottom line is he hasn't done a damn thing since dead or alive.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
If UBL were taken out tomorrow, complacency would set in with Americans

Thanks for explaining the bush reelection doctrine, but we already knew fear is/was his tool for maintaining stolen power.

[Jeff Higgins]

You guys should really take a look at what OBL has to say and drop the Bush thing. OBL is demanding a fundemental change in our lifestyle to that of a very hard-line form of Islam. He really does not care who our leader at the time happens to be. He really does not care about our presence in the Mid East. He cares about our values, morals, beliefs. He wants to force his upon us. He is a religious zealot to whom "worldly" things like who is in power or where we are have no meaning. His demands, since he believes they come from God Himself, are non-negotiable. Pulling out of the Mid East, or reducing our presence there, does nothing at all to appease this guy.

The other major point you seem to be missing is that his ideals and demands are representative of a population of religious zealots. They are not his and his alone. We will not be able to breathe a sigh of relief and assume the whole thing is over when he is gone. There is a movement among these people that we have to understand and learn to deal with. Focusing on one man, and thinking that if we deal with him the whole thing will just go away, is a very simplistic wrong answer to the problem. In that context it is very easy to understand what Bush was saying; focusing on OBL rather than the movement and ideals he represents would be a waste of resources.

He is only one piece (granted a very prominant one) of a much larger puzzle. Catching him may have some symbolic importance. To us, we caught the bad guy. To them, another martyr to embolden them. We have to look beyond him and see the big picture. His own words, if we read them and pay attention, will help us do that. Dragging Bush into this is merely a distraction that has the distinct danger of so clouding the discussion and analysis of OBL's words that we miss his message. That would be a mistake.

[Rick Lee]

Kach, you should seek help.

[island911]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
You guys should really take a look at what OBL has to say and drop the Bush thing. OBL is demanding a fundemental change in our lifestyle to that of a very hard-line form of Islam. He really does not care who our leader at the time happens to be. He really does not care about our presence in the Mid East. He cares about our values, morals, beliefs. He wants to force his upon us. He is a religious zealot to whom "worldly" things like who is in power or where we are have no meaning. His demands, since he believes they come from God Himself, are non-negotiable. Pulling out of the Mid East, or reducing our presence there, does nothing at all to appease this guy.

The other major point you seem to be missing is that his ideals and demands are representative of a population of religious zealots. They are not his and his alone. We will not be able to breathe a sigh of relief and assume the whole thing is over when he is gone. There is a movement among these people that we have to understand and learn to deal with. Focusing on one man, and thinking that if we deal with him the whole thing will just go away, is a very simplistic wrong answer to the problem. In that context it is very easy to understand what Bush was saying; focusing on OBL rather than the movement and ideals he represents would be a waste of resources.

He is only one piece (granted a very prominant one) of a much larger puzzle. Catching him may have some symbolic importance. To us, we caught the bad guy. To them, another martyr to embolden them. We have to look beyond him and see the big picture. His own words, if we read them and pay attention, will help us do that. Dragging Bush into this is merely a distraction that has the distinct danger of so clouding the discussion and analysis of OBL's words that we miss his message. That would be a mistake.

excellent post/point.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by kach22i
Thanks for explaining the bush reelection doctrine, but we already knew fear is/was his tool for maintaining stolen power.

"Stolen power"? Give it a rest. Still have a Kerry sticker on your car?
Bush is still in office because the American People kept him there.
Sheesh...